Second Presidential Debate

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

In short...from what Obama has said about his life, he knows what it means to struggle...he knows what life is like for the average American

Oh, really? The "average American" doesn't have two Ivy League degrees or a high school education from one of Hawaii's top prep schools. The "average American" doesn't own a house worth $1.4 million. The "average American" cannot send two children to private school. There's a huge difference from coming up in a working-class family (as Obama seems to have) and ending up in the upper-middle class than to be born poor and stay poor.

I'm not saying that McCain is in touch with the "average American" either, but let's not kid ourselves and say Obama is Joe Six Pack.

[AGDee]

I sure as heck wouldn't want Joe Six Pack running our country!

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I sure as heck wouldn't want Joe Six Pack running our country!

LOL. Which is one reason I continue to say that choosing Sarah Palin as your running mate =/= "Country First."

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I sure as heck wouldn't want Joe Six Pack running our country!

Neither would I! But, we can't let ourselves get wrapped up in this image of Obama as the blue-collar savior, that because he only has one house that he's like the "average American." No, he's above average, just like John McCain.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Oh, really? The "average American" doesn't have two Ivy League degrees or a high school education from one of Hawaii's top prep schools. The "average American" doesn't own a house worth $1.4 million. The "average American" cannot send two children to private school. There's a huge difference from coming up in a working-class family (as Obama seems to have) and ending up in the upper-middle class than to be born poor and stay poor.

I'm not saying that McCain is in touch with the "average American" either, but let's not kid ourselves and say Obama is Joe Six Pack.

Not talking about where he is now..I am talking about where he has been...he has not always lived in a million dollar home or came from a family full Ivy League students...that is the approach I am taking with what I said. Obama comes off as knowing what it's like to be poor and knows what it's like to work hard to live a comfortable life. McCain to me doesn't strike me that way....hell, I can relate more to Palin knowing what it's like to struggle a bit with family and bills moreso than I can see McCain being able to relate.

That is why I cringe when he says that he doesn't want to tax the wealthy because he knows that he and his wife would be included...and we all know that the last thing anyone want is somebody messing with their money...especially when you don't have any and those that have more than enough don't want to give any up.

[CrackerBarrel]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Not talking about where he is now..I am talking about where he has been...he has not always lived in a million dollar home or came from a family full Ivy League students...that is the approach I am taking with what I said. Obama comes off as knowing what it's like to be poor and knows what it's like to work hard to live a comfortable life. McCain to me doesn't strike me that way....hell, I can relate more to Palin knowing what it's like to struggle a bit with family and bills moreso than I can see McCain being able to relate.

That is why I cringe when he says that he doesn't want to tax the wealthy because he knows that he and his wife would be included...and we all know that the last thing anyone want is somebody messing with their money...especially when you don't have any and those that have more than enough don't want to give any up.

You do realize that at no point has he said "I don't want to tax the wealthy" don't you? Oh of course not, you just hear what you want to.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by CrackerBarrel

You do realize that at no point has he said "I don't want to tax the wealthy" don't you? Oh of course not, you just hear what you want to.

McCain:

So let's not raise anybody's taxes, my friends, and make it be very clear to you I am not in favor of tax cuts for the wealthy. I am in favor of leaving the tax rates alone and reducing the tax burden on middle-income Americans by doubling your tax exemption for every child from $3,500 to $7,000."

He still never explained how reducing the tax burden would help people who have no kids.

And what would have to be done to increase the EIC? I don't see that as somehting that would happen over night and even still, I have an odd feeling that part of that increase has to do with the $5000 he 'promises' to give Americans to buy health care...at that point you will NEED the increased EIC to pay the premiums!

[ajuhdg]

Can someone explain this to me like I'm 5? Why do people who work hard to make high salaries (believe me, I am far from being one of them!) have to pay more taxes? I compare to upper-ups in my company. One floats around, nobody sees him, and when you do he's pretending to work. The other works his butt off, does a great job managing and balancing his large family. Now, I wouldn't mind at all if the one lazy manager has to pay more, but the other one really does work to have what he has. How is that fair? Is that just 'classist'? NOBODY WANTS to pay taxes, regardless of how much they make, since they're included in that isn't it just honesty?

I'm really looking all over the place to see where Obama has struggled at all, DaemonSeid. I guess maybe mine and Obama's (and your!) idea of living 'comfortably' is very different. Loosing your parents at a young age sucks. Moving all over the place sucks too. Haven't seen anything about him working three jobs just so his kids can eat, or having family members share a small apartment just so nobody's on the street, in fact, his father went to Harvard too, right?

Munch: 'blue-collar savior'...I love it!

You know, if BO wins, I REALLY hope that I'm eating crow. Until then, I'll just be holding my breath, as I am now, watching the stock market.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

Can someone explain this to me like I'm 5? Why do people who work hard to make high salaries (believe me, I am far from being one of them!) have to pay more taxes?

I think that, perhaps, it's a question of how one defines "fair share." To some people, everyone paying their fair share means, for example, everyone paying X%. (Of course, even under this simple formula, those who make more are paying more in fact, even if they are paying the same proportionally.)

Others would disagree that this is the fairest way to assess taxes. Say X% = 20%. 20% of $30,000 takes a much bigger chunk out of what is needed to live on than, say, 20% of $300,000. Hence, tax brackets in a progressive tax system like we have now. Of course, all of that gets muddled once deductions, credits and the like all get mixed into the equation.

I think that one can have "classist" reasons for thinking that the wealthier should pay more, and I think that others can have, for want of a better word, "honest" reasons for thinking so. And I don't think anyone can seriously question that the current tax structure is a mess and needs overhauling. I'll admit, though, that I don't know the best (and fairest) way to fix it; I doubt, though, that there's on;y one "right" way.

[WarEagle07]

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

Can someone explain this to me like I'm 5? Why do people who work hard to make high salaries (believe me, I am far from being one of them!) have to pay more taxes? I compare to upper-ups in my company. One floats around, nobody sees him, and when you do he's pretending to work. The other works his butt off, does a great job managing and balancing his large family. Now, I wouldn't mind at all if the one lazy manager has to pay more, but the other one really does work to have what he has. How is that fair? Is that just 'classist'? NOBODY WANTS to pay taxes, regardless of how much they make, since they're included in that isn't it just honesty?

I'm really looking all over the place to see where Obama has struggled at all, DaemonSeid. I guess maybe mine and Obama's (and your!) idea of living 'comfortably' is very different. Loosing your parents at a young age sucks. Moving all over the place sucks too. Haven't seen anything about him working three jobs just so his kids can eat, or having family members share a small apartment just so nobody's on the street, in fact, his father went to Harvard too, right?

Munch: 'blue-collar savior'...I love it!

You know, if BO wins, I REALLY hope that I'm eating crow. Until then, I'll just be holding my breath, as I am now, watching the stock market.

I am wondering the exact same thing!! My husband and I are part of the demographic considered wealthy by Obama's standards but I can tell you that we are a far cry from wealthy. We live in that nasty income bracket where we get hit with the AMT every year so we can't maximize deductions, we don't qualify for financial aid so we pay out of pocket for kids colleges, we don't qualify for stimulus help, and we probably won't qualify for any of the amazing tax credits promised by either candidate. So once we pay our 'fair share' of taxes, pay tuition, pay medical bills, and dental etc there isn't a ton left over for us to be in any way considered wealthy. Yeah, we worked so hard and payed our way through college and worked long hours to get where we are at. It's like being penalized for achieving, in other words why is my hard work not valued as much as a middle class person's hard work by the government? Why is the upper-middle class now considered wealthy? If Obama wants to come see my 'truly wealthy' lifestyle, he can come cut coupons with me and I can drive him around in my car with 110,000 miles on and hoping that it will last another couple of years! On this point I believe that Obama is very much out of touch

[ajuhdg]

Originally Posted by WarEagle07

I am wondering the exact same thing!! My husband and I are part of the demographic considered wealthy by Obama's standards but I can tell you that we are a far cry from wealthy. On this point I believe that Obama is very much out of touch

Here I am going around feeling like I'm the only one who thinks this guy is a phony. I sent an email to my dad (also a McCain supporter in TX) and asked if there was just something that I was missing, I must've missed the magical Obama Juice when it was being passed around.

Just got back from the dentist, who have me some hope. We, of course, tiptoed around each other as to who our vote was for. When I just came out and told him, he exasperatedly said, "THANK GOD!" Then he preceded to drill on my tooth telling me why. LOL! He said that he thinks that people might say a lot now, but when it comes to really making the choice, they'll go the McCain way. This kind of goes with my lines of hopeful thinking. He says that the only reason people are picking BO is he's the 'popular' guy. Makes sense, 'cause Oprah told me so'. And, yes, hun, he IS out of touch with his 1.6 million dollar income.

On a side note, why is just anybody and their dog allowed to vote? What is up with this 'register the day before, and go vote' crap? I'll check to see if there is another thread.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

Just got back from the dentist, who have me some hope. We, of course, tiptoed around each other as to who our vote was for. When I just came out and told him, he exasperatedly said, "THANK GOD!" Then he preceded to drill on my tooth telling me why. LOL! He said that he thinks that people might say a lot now, but when it comes to really making the choice, they'll go the McCain way. This kind of goes with my lines of hopeful thinking. He says that the only reason people are picking BO is he's the 'popular' guy. Makes sense, 'cause Oprah told me so'. And, yes, hun, he IS out of touch with his 1.6 million dollar income.

That may be the case with some people. But your dentist is either really ignorant or has been sniffing something in his office if he really thinks that the only reason people are picking Obama is because he's "the popular guy" or because "Oprah told them to."

Some people are going with Obama because they sincerely believe, after {gasp} thinking about it, that he is the better choice. Some people, believe it or not, don't trust McCain any more than you trust Obama. Some people think that picking Sarah Palin to be a heartbeat away from the presidency demonstrated that McCain's judgment is sorely lacking. Some people disagree with McCain's approach to foreign policy in general and the Iraq War in particular. People support Obama and McCain for all kinds of reasons -- in both cases, some good, some bad.

And I've got to tell you -- I've had more than one conversation with Republicans who voted for Bush both times and who are not only supporting Obama but very turned off by McCain. And to a person, the economy is the reason.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

That may be the case with some people. But your dentist is either really ignorant or has been sniffing something in his office if he really thinks that the only reason people are picking Obama is because he's "the popular guy" or because "Oprah told them to."

Some people are going with Obama because they sincerely believe, after {gasp} thinking about it, that he is the better choice. Some people, believe it or not, don't trust McCain any more than you trust Obama. Some people think that picking Sarah Palin to be a heartbeat away from the presidency demonstrated that McCain's judgment is sorely lacking. Some people disagree with McCain's approach to foreign policy in general and the Iraq War in particular. People support Obama and McCain for all kinds of reasons -- in both cases, some good, some bad.

And I've got to tell you -- I've had more than one conversation with Republicans who voted for Bush both times and who are not only supporting Obama but very turned off by McCain. And to a person, the economy is the reason.

It definitely works both ways - one of the things that has really turned me off to this election cycle is people, on both sides of the aisle, acting like there is only one reasonable pick for President. Again, as I've said before, I can understand being completely supportive of a candidate, falling for a candidate, so to speak, to the point where you don't see as many of their flaws.

But, I can't understand the mindset that there's only one reasonable pick, or that you have to be crazy, starstruck, or otherwise flawed to pick one candidate over another. I may not agree with people who support Obama, and I may have my own feelings about whether or not he is the best person to run the country, but I certainly understand why someone would want to vote for him. I would hope that others would give me the same respect about my decision to vote McCain, or that others would respect those who have chosen to vote Obama, but that "mutual partisan respect," so to speak, has been missing this election cycle.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

And I've got to tell you -- I've had more than one conversation with Republicans who voted for Bush both times and who are not only supporting Obama but very turned off by McCain. And to a person, the economy is the reason.

we can agree to that...I have 2 in my office that shares that view.

[ajuhdg]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

That may be the case with some people. But your dentist is either really ignorant or has been sniffing something in his office if he really thinks that the only reason people are picking Obama is because he's "the popular guy" or because "Oprah told them to."

People support Obama and McCain for all kinds of reasons -- in both cases, some good, some bad.

And I've got to tell you -- I've had more than one conversation with Republicans who voted for Bush both times and who are not only supporting Obama but very turned off by McCain. And to a person, the economy is the reason.

First, NEVER said it was the only reason, but one of the many. Just didn't think that they were all worth repeating. To me, just made a good point, as I was telling a coworker a story about a client I met with last night...just to make it short...one of the servicemembers involved in the rescue of McCain is a friend of one of my clients. McCain came back and signed his flight log book to thank him for searching for him. This was two years after he returned stateside. She (an Obama supporter) looked at me quizzically, "Who was a POW? McCain? I had no idea!" She's an obama supporter, because that's who her friends were voting for...she's 52.

It's been made very clear that everyone has different reasons for choosing who they choose, regardless of how legitimate or silly they are. I've heard people saying they are supporting Obama JUST because he had student loans. I've also heard people who are supporting McCain JUST because he was a POW. Neither is a good reason (in my opinion) to base your vote on, but hey, my vote only counts once!