Politics 2008:The Caucuses and The Dem/Rep Conventions

[mccoyred]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

(Sorry for the board crash - I like following the politics discussions...)

You realize there may be reasons why they don't vote for Obama, beyond the color of his skin, right? That there may be reasonable minds within the Democratic party who have an issue with Obama's policies, etc?

Yeah, reasons like he is a Muslim (false), he is unpatriotic (huh?), oh yeah, and he was sexist toward Hillary (prove it!). ALL FALSE! All through the primaries, the pundits, pollsters and even the candidates themselves highlighted the fact that there is little daylight between them on the issues and matters of policy.

So what else is there, oh yeah, experience....He has about the same amount of elected political experience (10 yrs) as Clinton (15), Bush Sr (12) and Reagan (8) and more than Carter(7), FRD(6) and Bush Jr (5) (source:
http://www.ipl.org/div/potus/).

Is it because he was not a POW? Uh, the last President that had real military experience was Eisenhower, I believe. So that doesn't pass muster either.


PLEASE tell me why Democrats, esp those who supported Hillary, are not voting for Obama. I really want to know.




FYI, I am not a Democrat, I am a Registered Independent.


ETA: One of the last die hard Hillbots converts! http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...083101620.html

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by mccoyred

Yeah, reasons like he is a Muslim (false), he is unpatriotic (huh?), oh yeah, and he was sexist toward Hillary (prove it!). ALL FALSE! All through the primaries, the pundits, pollsters and even the candidates themselves highlighted the fact that there is little daylight between them on the issues and matters of policy.

So what else is there, oh yeah, experience....He has about the same amount of elected political experience (10 yrs) as Clinton (15), Bush Sr (12) and Reagan (8) and more than Carter(7), FRD(6) and Bush Jr (5) (source:
http://www.ipl.org/div/potus/).

Is it because he was not a POW? Uh, the last President that had real military experience was Eisenhower, I believe. So that doesn't pass muster either.


PLEASE tell me why Democrats, esp those who supported Hillary, are not voting for Obama. I really want to know.




FYI, I am not a Democrat, I am a Registered Independent.


ETA: One of the last die hard Hillbots converts! http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...083101620.html

Bush Sr. also had significant military experience. As to the other points, I understand what you're saying

[mccoyred]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Bush Sr. also had significant military experience. As to the other points, I understand what you're saying

Thanks for the additional information. I also appreciate that you understand what I am saying. However, I REALLY want to know the answer to my question. WHY are there some Democrats who can't bring themselves to vote for Obama?

[Liquid Soule]

Originally Posted by mccoyred

WHY are there some Democrats who can't bring themselves to vote for Obama?

Some may be really upset about how Hillery was treated. Imagine how the record numbered of AA, who registered to vote because of the historical possibilities of this election, would react/feel if Obama was not the nominee.

Then there are a huge number of Reagan Dems. and some of those do not agree with his policies.

Don't get me wrong he will suffer from the Bradley effect, how badly, guess we'll see in Nov.

[mccoyred]

Originally Posted by Liquid Soule

Some may be really upset about how Hillery was treated.

As I indicated in an earlier post, PROVE (ie show evidence) that BARACK OBAMA or HIS campaign was sexist toward Hillary or otherwise treated her poorly. I know of plenty of third parties (other Dems, media, folx on the street, Repugs, etc.) that were sexist but I cannot think of one incidence (neither could Ferraro when asked) of OBAMA's sexist behavior.

Frankly, I believe that Hillary brought a lot of it on herself. She chose poor advisors, allowed her husband to exercise his ego and carried an air of inevitability far into the process.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by mccoyred

As I indicated in an earlier post, PROVE (ie show evidence) that BARACK OBAMA or HIS campaign was sexist toward Hillary or otherwise treated her poorly. I know of plenty of third parties (other Dems, media, folx on the street, Repugs, etc.) that were sexist but I cannot think of one incidence (neither could Ferraro when asked) of OBAMA's sexist behavior.

Frankly, I believe that Hillary brought a lot of it on herself. She chose poor advisors, allowed her husband to exercise his ego and carried an air of inevitability far into the process.

Exactly. Some Hillary supporters have no doubt convinced themselves that Obama and his campaign were sexist toward Hillary which couldn't be further from the truth. If there was any sexism going on, it came from the Media and others, not Obama and his camp. I think the thing that these die-hard Hillary supporters; the "I can't vote for Obama" women refuse to admit to themselves is that Hillary's camp made several mistakes because they underestimated Obama's ability to win. The Clintons thought that Hillary would win by a landslide because afterall, they are "The Clintons" and Obama was an unknown. But like the saying goes..."Never underestimate your opponent."

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by mccoyred

As I indicated in an earlier post, PROVE (ie show evidence) that BARACK OBAMA or HIS campaign was sexist toward Hillary or otherwise treated her poorly. I know of plenty of third parties (other Dems, media, folx on the street, Repugs, etc.) that were sexist but I cannot think of one incidence (neither could Ferraro when asked) of OBAMA's sexist behavior.

"Mr. Obama, can I ask your thoughts on..." female reporter
"Not now 'sweetie'..." As he rushed out of the facility to go to another with secret service telling him where he needs to be...

Or when Obama said, "I look forward to working with you in the Whitehouse..." as Hillary rolled her eyes during one of the primary debates...

That's what "they" are talking about... That is "extremely offensive" to them... LOL... Kind of like "you people" at the NAACP in 1992...

[mccoyred]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

"Mr. Obama, can I ask your thoughts on..." female reporter
"Not now 'sweetie'..." As he rushed out of the facility to go to another with secret service telling him where he needs to be......

This was NOT said or directed at Clinton. My mom (54 years old) calls anyone whose name she can't remember 'sweetie'. So no sexism here.

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Or when Obama said, "I look forward to working with you in the Whitehouse..." as Hillary rolled her eyes during one of the primary debates......

I don't see the sexist bent on this. Is it the same as Hillary/Bill/others specualting that Obama could be HER VP? If so, she was being 'sexist' to him.





So far, no proof of Obama's sexism towards Hillary.

[SummerChild]

I agree with you. I think that the nomination was HRC's to lose and ... well, she lost it. Point blank. Her underhanded schemes, off color comments about Obama (which was, at one time, borderline racist) and the lies about dodging bullets, not having a good campaign manager, all that stuff backfired on her.

Really, Obama never talked against HRC when they were running. He moreso focused on the current government status quo and what needed to change. HRC lost it for herself. I think that this is truly the reason that it took her so long to give up. When you shoot yourself in the foot, and you're finally honest with yourself (if not your supporters) about it, well, let's face it - it's a tough pill to swallow.

I think that hardcore HRC fans that will not vote for Obama may do so for several reasons that one could view as legitimate. While I do not agree, they may really believe that Obama is not experienced enough or simply disagree with his politics. The hardcore feminist HRC voters may be so upset and disappointed that a woman got so close and did not win the nomination. Further, they may be channeling their disappointment against Obama b/c, let's face it, he IS a man. They may see him as a representative of the old boys network. Now, as ludicrous as that obviously is as he is not privy to the old boys network, the fact of the matter is that he carried a large percentage of the male Democratic vote. Was that b/c of his politics or b/c men cannot see a woman as president? Who knows. However, hardcore feminist HRC supporters may be angry with Obama for being a man and beating HRC - a woman. It may be as simple as that if it's not the aforementioned political thing.

SC

Originally Posted by mccoyred

Frankly, I believe that Hillary brought a lot of it on herself. She chose poor advisors, allowed her husband to exercise his ego and carried an air of inevitability far into the process.

[darling1]

for some, the issue is that obama is black. it may be as simple as that. as much as we have progressed, i feel there may be some people who think "the audacity of this black man and his black wife". i have had convos with friends and they are uncomfortable with how he got to this point and who he has backing him. they believe he is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Originally Posted by mccoyred

Thanks for the additional information. I also appreciate that you understand what I am saying. However, I REALLY want to know the answer to my question. WHY are there some Democrats who can't bring themselves to vote for Obama?

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by mccoyred

WHY are there some Democrats who can't bring themselves to vote for Obama?

Who knows what their dysfunction is? Fearful of how much change is he saying or meaning? Whether or not the man is Black or other, some Democrats are worried that his thoughts about his future policies will not propel the country to the heights that "they" think it needs to be...

We have terrorists, no oil, failing infrastructure, managing disasters with minimal resources, etc. and in the meanwhile we fall behind other industrialized countries when we were at the heightened peak... Surely, Obama could not have the "end all be all" to solve our US problems... Surely...

Besides, this is a page outta Dr. Frances Cress Welsing's "Isis Papers"...

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by mccoyred

Thanks for the additional information. I also appreciate that you understand what I am saying. However, I REALLY want to know the answer to my question. WHY are there some Democrats who can't bring themselves to vote for Obama?

Just an FYI - there was an almost identical issue in 2000 after the primary fight between Bush and McCain. At the time of the Republican Convention, something like 40% of McCain backers said they would not back Bush during the general election. That number shrunk considerably by the time of the general election, and, I would guess, the same thing will happen with Obama.

While I have no doubt that race plays some part, it could just be old-fashioned bitterness after a tough primary season. I also should point out that largely, I believe with you, in that I question those who switched parties because their candidate of choice didn't get the nomination.