Plegdes wearing letters???

[SWTXBelle]

I was confused at first, then went back and re-read your previous post - it was clear to me, but since you list Gamma Phi first in your signature . . .

[breathesgelatin]

So to tally up based on my question:

NPCs that allow new members to wear letters but not the crest (or maybe it would be better to say display the crest):

AEPhi
ASA
AST

Ones that allow letters and crest:

Pi Phi (never heard anything differently anyway)

Anyone else want to contribute to this list? I had never heard about the letters-not-crest thing and find it fascinating.

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

So to tally up based on my question:

NPCs that allow new members to wear letters but not the crest (or maybe it would be better to say display the crest):

AEPhi
ASA
AST

It's the other way around, for AEPhi. Our new members cannot wear letters (per national policy) but our new member pin is the crest with the Greek letters removed.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by aephi alum

It's the other way around, for AEPhi. Our new members cannot wear letters (per national policy) but our new member pin is the crest with the Greek letters removed.

Ah, I think I completely misread your initial post. Sorry about that.

NPCs that allow letters, not crests, for NMs:

AST
ASA
G Phi B (I think I gathered that..?)
KD
Sigma Kappa


NPCs that allow crests, not letters, for NMs:

AEPhi

NPCs that allow both:

Pi Phi

FWIW, I agree with preciousjeni. I think that for the most part insisting that allowing letters vs. crests is all a matter of semantics. As is "new member" vs. "pledge."

I think the salient point for me is that some chapter were doing things in the past like "making pledges earn their letters" by hazing and that's why disallowing letters for NMs was done away with. I've never heard of hazing justified by "making pledges earn their crest," so it's less of a hot-button issue.

[SWTXBelle]

I would be interested in knowing when the question of letters became an issue. Certainly those NPC groups formed in the 19th and early 20th centuries could never have imagined their members wearing T SHIRTS as outerwear!!! The pledge pin and member's badge were really the only early insignia. And breathesgelatin, do you know when crests were adopted for NPCs? (paging oldu - I bet he'd know!)
It seems that lettered jerseys hit around - maybe the 50s? Late 40s?

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Just my take after re-reading your posts.

breathesgelatin essentially said what I've been trying to get across, but she put it more succinctly.

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

FWIW, I agree with preciousjeni. I think that for the most part insisting that allowing letters vs. crests is all a matter of semantics. As is "new member" vs. "pledge."

I think the salient point for me is that some chapter were doing things in the past like "making pledges earn their letters" by hazing and that's why disallowing letters for NMs was done away with. I've never heard of hazing justified by "making pledges earn their crest," so it's less of a hot-button issue.

ETA: I'm calling the hazing laws and such - that have forced Greeks orgs to enact the logically inconsistent policies - "insane" and "ridiculous," not the policies themselves. If we weren't such a litigious society, I believe we could have much more successfully separated the true hazing from the organizational traditions. ALL Greeks are affected which is why I'm so concerned about it.

[pinksirfidel]

All of this talk has really made me start to think... When was it approved/allowed that greeks were allowed to wear other greeks' letters? Many times, our Panhellenic Council will sponsor an event or have some type of promotion where they used tshirts to advertise. The tshirts would include the letters of all participating greek organizations... or.. even some sororities team up with events and advertise the same way... umm, if "new members" can't wear letters, how is it that other greeks can!?!

As far as I remember, our new members were allowed to wear letters.

[fantASTic]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

breathesgelatin essentially said what I've been trying to get across, but she put it more succinctly.



ETA: I'm calling the hazing laws and such - that have forced Greeks orgs to enact the logically inconsistent policies - "insane" and "ridiculous," not the policies themselves. If we weren't such a litigious society, I believe we could have much more successfully separated the true hazing from the organizational traditions. ALL Greeks are affected which is why I'm so concerned about it.

You know...as a national staff member, you may want to consider whether you REALLY want to keep going on about how hazing issues are insane and ridiculous.

While I understand what you're saying about litigious societies, it's worth saying that as a GLO member, we are obligated to hold the standards Nationals sets for us - and while we can disagree with them, as a national staff member I'd expect you to support them so as not to give the wrong idea.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I'd be curious to know - do they have voting rights regarding membership? In other words, do new members vote on pnms? I could see a point being made about chapter business other than new members - but surely you have to be an initiated sister to be, say, the new member educator?

You'd have to ask an ADPi, but here is a post where I mentioned it before and linked to other posts -- one about ADPi and one that I'd forgotten about AXO.

Originally Posted by pinksirfidel

All of this talk has really made me start to think... When was it approved/allowed that greeks were allowed to wear other greeks' letters? Many times, our Panhellenic Council will sponsor an event or have some type of promotion where they used tshirts to advertise. The tshirts would include the letters of all participating greek organizations... or.. even some sororities team up with events and advertise the same way... umm, if "new members" can't wear letters, how is it that other greeks can!?!

When this has been discussed before, the consensus has been that shirts like you describe don't imply that you are a member of every organization listed, but just that the organization you are a member of participated in the event or promotion. The issue is wearing letters in a way that indicates that you are a member of the organization whose letters you are wearing,

Even then, some orgs might have guidelines -- Fiji would not allow their letters to be used at all; and as described ad nauseum above, some orgs might allow their names to be spelled out in English but would not allow the Greek letters to be used.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by fantASTic

You know...as a national staff member, you may want to consider whether you REALLY want to keep going on about how hazing issues are insane and ridiculous.

While I understand what you're saying about litigious societies, it's worth saying that as a GLO member, we are obligated to hold the standards Nationals sets for us - and while we can disagree with them, as a national staff member I'd expect you to support them so as not to give the wrong idea.

I/HQ policies aren't really the issue -- it's the extremely vague state/federal hazing laws that are cause for concern.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

Ah, I think I completely misread your initial post. Sorry about that.

NPCs that allow letters, not crests, for NMs:

AST
ASA
G Phi B (I think I gathered that..?)
KD
Sigma Kappa

Actually, I think that now our NMs might be allowed to wear the crest as well. (I was just explaining why we allowed letters and why a crest might not be allowed - not necessarily that this is our current, official policy) But seeing, as I said, that most crest sweatshirts are really expensive now (and the ones I saw from our official vendor were pretty butt ugly) it's kind of a moot point.