Plegdes wearing letters???

[tld221]

Originally Posted by aephi alum

AEPhi is one of those NPC orgs that does not allow new members to wear letters. Why? Unless you're an initiated sister, you don't know the full meaning of the letters, nor have you made a full lifetime commitment to the sorority. New members can represent by wearing their ribbons, NM pins, or items that read "AEPhi" or "Alpha Epsilon Phi", but no Greek letters until initiation. So we welcome our NMs, but we also ask them to wait until initiation for the privilege of wearing the Greek letters.

Most NPC orgs don't let new members wear or own anything with the crest. AEPhi's NM pin actually is the crest, minus the Greek letters.

You say tomayto, I say tomahto.

Questions (of course you dont have to answer, being that it could be privy to your org):

1. What happens if you have a PNM who says "screw that, im wearing letters" before initiation? Is she asked to leave the pledge class? Does she get to stay with a slap on the wrist? Is she socially looked down on? Or is it something on the books but not really enforced?

2. If new members are allowed to wear the crest, are they told what those things on the crest mean? If not, isnt that the same as wearing letters they dont know the meaning of?

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Sigh.

eta - I'm all for AEPhi handling their business anyway they wish - more power to them. But I still have to wonder (see below). Also, is this AEPhi HQ policy, or your chapter? I find many chapters have rules that are more strict than the inter/national GLO's policies.
Upon reflection, the fact that the crest IS the new member pin, minus the letters, is probably the strongest argument for AEPhi's policy. The letters are what distinguishes the new member pin from the initiated member's crest. So to over-logical me, that makes sense.

See, and it doesnt make sense to me, based on my argument above. NMs dont know what the letters mean, so they cant wear them, but the letters spelled out? youre still representing the organization. The crest has things, or perhaps a phrase, that are secret as well, but they CAN wear them? doesnt add up.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Pray tell - if a pledge doesn't know what the letters mean, and thus shouldn't wear them, why do you allow pledges to wear Phi Mu spelled out? They don't know what "Phi Mu" means as a pledge, right? So what is the difference?
I realize this is far snarkier than I usually am, and if I could figure out a non-snarky way to write it, I would. From a logical standpoint, I just can't see why the letters themselves are verboten, while writing it out is okay.

right, id like some answer to this as well. I think it leaves too much grey area. You are either a member (initiated, dues paid, NME process complete) or you are not (expressed interest, attended rush, going to rush/COB/pledge class/NME activities on the WAY to being initiated).

its like being pregnant. you either are or arent. it would be like saying "well im 8 months pregnant, and since im so close to childbirth, i can call myself a mom. but you're only 6 weeks pregnant, so you cant call yourself a mother yet."

or like getting a job. youre not an employee until you go through all those interviews, the head honcho tells you "youre hired," you get your company ID and all that jazz and hit New Employee Orientation. Imagine the look on someone's face if they were passing out business cards for a company they were in the interview process with. Theyve got no rights to represent that company.


Or... is it more like upon graduation, that middle area when you walk across the stage, yet you havent gotten your diploma? You can tell everyone you're a Univ of Whatever alum but its not official until the university sees all the requirements have been met?

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

eta - I'm all for AEPhi handling their business anyway they wish - more power to them. But I still have to wonder (see below). Also, is this AEPhi HQ policy, or your chapter? I find many chapters have rules that are more strict than the inter/national GLO's policies.
Upon reflection, the fact that the crest IS the new member pin, minus the letters, is probably the strongest argument for AEPhi's policy. The letters are what distinguishes the new member pin from the initiated member's crest. So to over-logical me, that makes sense.

It is the AEPhi HQ policy. While most NPC orgs allow new members to wear letters but not the crest, we allow new members to wear (a version of) the crest, but not letters.

Originally Posted by tld221

Questions (of course you dont have to answer, being that it could be privy to your org):

1. What happens if you have a PNM who says "screw that, im wearing letters" before initiation? Is she asked to leave the pledge class? Does she get to stay with a slap on the wrist? Is she socially looked down on? Or is it something on the books but not really enforced?

2. If new members are allowed to wear the crest, are they told what those things on the crest mean? If not, isnt that the same as wearing letters they dont know the meaning of?

A PNM wouldn't be wearing any org's letters, as she hasn't pledged anywhere yet. But a new member who is seen wearing letters would just be asked to stop doing so until after initiation.

As for the crest, there is some publicly available information, and the new members would have this information before receiving their pins. More than that, I cannot say.

[AOII Angel]

I think its your organizations prerogative to withhold your letters from you NMs, aephi alum. Of course there are reasons to withhold all types of paraphernalia from NMs. The badge is for initiated members only, but sometimes these rules are a little confusing and random. In the end, I agree that chapters should make sure to follow the actual rules of HQ and not the made- up rules of the individual chapter. AOII only withholds the badge from NMs. They can wear the letters and the rose (though, as a NM, I was not allowed to have anything with a rose on it because we thought that was the rule. It was a chapter rule!) I think most of the alums on GC get a little upset when collegians from our chapters come on GC with some far-fetched explanation why our org does something that clearly we know is not true.

[AOII_LB93]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I think its your organizations prerogative to withhold your letters from you NMs, aephi alum. Of course there are reasons to withhold all types of paraphernalia from NMs. The badge is for initiated members only, but sometimes these rules are a little confusing and random. In the end, I agree that chapters should make sure to follow the actual rules of HQ and not the made- up rules of the individual chapter. AOII only withholds the badge from NMs. They can wear the letters and the rose (though, as a NM, I was not allowed to have anything with a rose on it because we thought that was the rule. It was a chapter rule!) I think most of the alums on GC get a little upset when collegians from our chapters come on GC with some far-fetched explanation why our org does something that clearly we know is not true.

I know what you mean! I got so much grief from my "friends" from other chapters because I wore letters after Bid Day...because they weren't allowed at the time. I may not have known what they meant, but I also knew how to wear them - with pride and looking good....not all frumpy in sweats.

To each their own I guess.

[AnchorAlumna]

I'm thinking some of this confusion exists because new member periods are so short now.
With a semester-long NM period, you REALLY grind that stuff into your memory.
Now, it's just a matter of weeks.

[PhiMuGirl07]

Originally Posted by AnchorAlumna

I'm thinking some of this confusion exists because new member periods are so short now.
With a semester-long NM period, you REALLY grind that stuff into your memory.
Now, it's just a matter of weeks.

Our New Member period was almost a full semester but I do know what you mean. We were the last chapter on my campus to be initiated. Most were only about a month long.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Pray tell - if a pledge doesn't know what the letters mean, and thus shouldn't wear them, why do you allow pledges to wear Phi Mu spelled out? They don't know what "Phi Mu" means as a pledge, right? So what is the difference?
I realize this is far snarkier than I usually am, and if I could figure out a non-snarky way to write it, I would. From a logical standpoint, I just can't see why the letters themselves are verboten, while writing it out is okay.

I didn't see this earlier, but coming from an org that follows this policy, I'll take a stab at it.

The Greek letters spelled out -- Phi Mu Alpha -- are basically the name of the Fraternity; they identify the Fraternity and those people and things affiliated with it. But the Greek letters themselves -- F, M, A -- are much more than just the name of the Fraternity. (Shoot, for our first 50 years, they weren't even officially part of the Fraternity's name.) They are symbols of the ideals that we most cherish; and they identify those who have been fully initiated and who have committed themselves by solemn oath to cherish and promote what the letters mean. They are among the most meaningful symbols we have.

Until initiation, one is not a full brother. He may indicate his probationary affiliation with the Fraternity by wearing or having something with the name spelled out. But until he is initiated into full membership, he doesn't have the right to wear the letters themselves (or the coat-of-arms), because he has neither learned what they mean nor committed himself to what they represent.

[PhiMuGirl07]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I didn't see this earlier, but coming from an org that follows this policy, I'll take a stab at it.

The Greek letters spelled out -- Phi Mu Alpha -- are basically the name of the Fraternity; they identify the Fraternity and those people and things affiliated with it. But the Greek letters themselves -- F, M, A -- are much more than just the name of the Fraternity. (Shoot, for our first 50 years, they weren't even officially part of the Fraternity's name.) They are symbols of the ideals that we most cherish; and they identify those who have been fully initiated and who have committed themselves by solemn oath to cherish and promote what the letters mean. They are among the most meaningful symbols we have.

Until initiation, one is not a full brother. He may indicate his probationary affiliation with the Fraternity by wearing or having something with the name spelled out. But until he is initiated into full membership, he doesn't have the right to wear the letters themselves (or the coat-of-arms), because he has neither learned what they mean nor committed himself to what they represent.

Thank you that was more along the lines of what I needed to say. I'm sure most if not all GLO's greek letters have special meanings that you only know about after initiation and spelled out is simply the name of the organization.

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I didn't see this earlier, but coming from an org that follows this policy, I'll take a stab at it.

The Greek letters spelled out -- Phi Mu Alpha -- are basically the name of the Fraternity; they identify the Fraternity and those people and things affiliated with it. But the Greek letters themselves -- F, M, A -- are much more than just the name of the Fraternity. (Shoot, for our first 50 years, they weren't even officially part of the Fraternity's name.) They are symbols of the ideals that we most cherish; and they identify those who have been fully initiated and who have committed themselves by solemn oath to cherish and promote what the letters mean. They are among the most meaningful symbols we have.

Until initiation, one is not a full brother. He may indicate his probationary affiliation with the Fraternity by wearing or having something with the name spelled out. But until he is initiated into full membership, he doesn't have the right to wear the letters themselves (or the coat-of-arms), because he has neither learned what they mean nor committed himself to what they represent.

I fully support any GLO's policies, whether or not they make sense to me, so please understand that I am not advocating that anyone is wrong, or should change.

I am simply approaching this from a logical standpoint. It still seems to me that hairs are being split - Whether or not "Alpha", for example, is written as a Greek letter or the English version, both stand for an element of the name of the group. Most, if not all, groups use the letters themselves because they are the first letter of a secret motto or meaning. So I still don't see why the Greek letters are any more representative of the secret-not-known-until-initiation meaning than the English version - both represent the beginning letter of a word that is not revealed until the member is fully initiated. And then there's FIJI - but that's taking it to an extreme.

Ultimately though, it's like I tell my darling children sometimes - "Because I'm the mom, and I say so!". If your GLO wants the letters reserved for initiated members, then they should be. I do think chapters should follow the national policy.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I am simply approaching this from a logical standpoint. It still seems to me that hairs are being split - Whether or not "Alpha", for example, is written as a Greek letter or the English version, both stand for an element of the name of the group. Most, if not all, groups use the letters themselves because they are the first letter of a secret motto or meaning. So I still don't see why the Greek letters are any more representative of the secret-not-known-until-initiation meaning than the English version - both represent the beginning letter of a word that is not revealed until the member is fully initiated.

I'll agree that each GLO should do things the way they see fit, whether it makes sense to me or not.

But, with all the humility I can muster , might I suggest that your approach is not a purely logical one, but rather one starting with the ethos of your own organization and using logic to apply that ethos to other organizations, whether the other organizations actually share that ethos or not. You say "I still don't see why the Greek letters are any more representative of the secret-not-known-until-initiation meaning than the English version." But just because you don't see why they are "more representative" of the esoteric teachings of an org doesn't mean that other orgs shouldn't (or can't) reasonably see them as "more representative."

To use my own organization as an example: We were founded in 1898. Our name was The Sinfonia Fraternity, not Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia Fraternity. We began using the Greek letters as early as 1900; by 1910, they had been added to our badge and appeared on our coat-of-arms (as part of the badge in the center of the shield). It was common from early days to sign letters "Fraternally yours, in F, M, A." (Notice the commas that were usually, though not always, included.) Used this way, the letters were taken to refer to what they represent, not necessarily to the Fraternity as such. Although the Fraternity had been informally referred to as "Phi Mu Alpha" for decades, the name was not officially changed until 1946. (Sinfonia remains the accepts "short form" name -- our equivalent of "Gamma Phi," if you will.) We have never referred to brothers as "Phi Mu Alphas," but rather always as Sinfonians; we often, however, refer to "brothers in FMA," again referring as much if not more to what the letters represent as to the Fraternity as such.

Also, because our name includes an English (derived from Greek) word -- "Sinfonia" -- as well as the Greek letters, we almost always write the name of the Fraternity in English. While brothers may use the Greek letters as identifiers on shirts, houses, objects, etc., I've rarely seen the name of the Fraternity written as "FMA Sinfonia." (Yes, I used to have it that way in my sig, although again not so much for the name per se as for what each letter or word means. One of the reasons I got rid of that sig was because it never looked right to me.)

So we do have a history and tradition where the Greek letters are, to us, more representative of what they stand for than the English spelling of the letters. I wouldn't be surprised if Phi Mu (for many years The Philomathean Society) has a similar historical understanding.

And as much as I swore I never would, I use "'Cause I'm the dad" on my kids way too often.

ETA: FWIW, the policy that only initiated brothers can wear the Greek letters is not just a policy promulgated by our HQ or followed by some chapters; it's contained in Article XXI, section 4, of our national constitution: "Only Sinfonians in good standing may wear or otherwise display the Greek letters 'ΦΜΑ' or the Fraternity’s Coat-of-Arms. Probationary members may not wear or otherwise display these symbols at any time prior to initiation. A member may not authorize or encourage a non-Sinfonian to wear or otherwise display these symbols."

[ree-Xi]

When I pledged AXiD in 1990, we were not allowed to wear letters. We were given a pledge shirt, which had ALPHA XI DELTA spelled out, with LAMDBA (pledge class) underneath it.

For those of you who know my story, we pledged for three months, to be initated the beginning of the next semester (for grades). Well, one week prior to finals, I became sick and had to head home early. I ended up missing out on a few things and ended up not initiating with my class.

Shoot ahead to this past March, when I was initiated via AI into my home chapter (LOVE MY EPSILON NU GALS!). Initiation was especially poingnant for me, because I learned things that meant something so much more than I could have ever understood. I realized that the person who I am, who I have always been, was already so much of who an Alpha Xi Delta woman is and attains to be. It felt so right. I can't explain it any better that that.

After initiation, the collegiates presented me with hand-stitched letters, my first set. They made me put it on over my dress, and took pictures. You cannot imagine what it felt like to wear my letters, so many years later. It's a feeling that I imagine will never lose its novelty.

[breathesgelatin]

There is so much confusion on this. Here is an example.

My chapter had a tradition of not allowing new members to wear letters. It wasn't strictly enforced. If a NM went out and bought items with the sorority letters on it, we didn't confiscate it from her or anything. Well, maybe some people in the chapter would have wanted us to or said something to the NM but officially we didn't take any action on that. Basically, our tradition was that during the NM period, no sorority shirts with the letters would be made. We just used the spelled out "Pi Beta Phi" (again, doesn't make a whole ton of sense to me logically either, but whatever). So getting your first letter tshirt and your lavaliere from your big sister was a big deal in my chapter.

Somehow this came up when a consultant came through and she got tense and told us this was NOT Pi Phi policy. She said we could still do the informal traditions of only spelling out the letters, as long as the NM and initiated member tshirts were all the same (they were). So really the only change that came from her visit was the chapter got even less concerned about NMs buying lettered stuff on their own, which given Pi Phi policy was a good thing.

Then, my senior year, we got a new AAC Chair (head advisor). The Chair was new to advising. Let me say that she was GREAT and I loved having her around and we were lucky to get her. But, her chapter as an undergrad had had a VERY strict policy that NMs should not wear letters. OK, so one of the duties of the AAC Chair in Pi Phi is that they conduct NM interviews prior to initiation (I don't think that's giving away too much). During the interviews, a few of the NMs were wearing stitched letter tshirts. The advisor was discreet, but she came to the officers afterwards (I was president at this point) and confronted us about the NMs wearing letters, this was a violation of policy, etc. We had to explain to her that this was NOT a violation and in fact telling them they couldn't wear letters was a violation. Her first reaction was disbelief. Her second reaction, once we convinced her that we were right (it took a while) was "That's stupid." Which is an opinion she's entitled to. But it just demonstrates how much confusion and disagreement there can be even within one chapter about A) what policy is B) what the ideal policy should be.

Re: the comments about most NPC chapters allowing NMs to wear letters and not crests, I've never heard this before. Can anyone provide some evidence for this on a NPC-wide basis? In my view, I can't really see what the difference would be, from a "treating NMs differently is hazing" perspective, between letters and crests. Also, I don't really see NMs jumping at the opportunity to wear tshirts with their crests. Because most people on a college campus would not immediately recognize what the heck their crest even is. But... I'm willing to be convinced of this fact. I've never heard such a thing for Pi Phi.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

Re: the comments about most NPC chapters allowing NMs to wear letters and not crests, I've never heard this before. Can anyone provide some evidence for this on a NPC-wide basis? In my view, I can't really see what the difference would be, from a "treating NMs differently is hazing" perspective, between letters and crests. Also, I don't really see NMs jumping at the opportunity to wear tshirts with their crests. Because most people on a college campus would not immediately recognize what the heck their crest even is. But... I'm willing to be convinced of this fact. I've never heard such a thing for Pi Phi.

Our rationale is that the crest as a whole is only fully understood after you go through the initiation ceremony. Whereas our letters have an open meaning (Aspire, Seek, Attain) that anyone can see anywhere. I would assume AST (Active, Self-Reliant, Trustworthy) is the same way.*

And as far as crests are concerned, they used to be a lot more popular when people were still getting screen printed sweatshirts in general. The crest sweatshirts now - at least the ones I've seen - cost SO much for the stitched ones and I think that's why a lot of people don't wear them.

*ETA: I am only speaking for my group as to why wearing letters as a pledge would be OK. I absolutely would not and do not presume to say that any other group should do the same, as I don't know what their letters mean or if they have an open motto that corresponds directly to them. My reason for using the AST example is 1) they were on my campus 2) they used their open motto frequently 3) the open mottos (AST's and ASA's) have the same initials in English as they do in Greek.