California's top court overturns gay marriage ban

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Rudey

My point was that moral compasses are different from person to person. Some folks may be pro gay marriage but against incest and beastiality and polygamy. So who's right? These aren't universal rights like "life". At the end of the day you can't just say "morals don't matter" and "some morals do, but not the ones from the bible".

But I'm not saying any of those things - I'm saying that, when a law is purely based on a moral expectation, you can't use a narrow moral authority (such as a subset of certain religions), particularly an excluded subsection of moral authorities (such as religion in general), as dictum.

Incest and bestiality laws do not have root in a narrow moral authority - they are instead rooted in protection against predators for those without means to protect themselves (animals, children). Adult incest creates genetic problems that have no way to be monitored, and as such preventative measures are likely appropriate. First cousins are allowed to be married in many states, because that's (apparently) the scientific cut-off for safety. Some people can do heroin without harming others or themselves, but we don't take them into consideration for legislative purposes.

Polygamy laws originally had a similar intent, if I'm not mistaken - to prevent children from being leveraged into a polygamist situation. Whether that applies today, I'm not sure, but I'm willing to cede that point completely (it really is somewhat odd that polygamy is specifically outlawed).

This isn't about "selective" morality, it's about avoiding selective morality (using Christian morality) by staying away from stupid laws regarding wholly irrelevant issues like marriage.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

This isn't about "selective" morality, it's about avoiding selective morality (using Christian morality) by staying away from stupid laws regarding wholly irrelevant issues like marriage.

Let me pose a somewhat hypothetical question:


Then what about cultures that are non-Christian (also non-Western) but are still very anti-gay? What basis are they using to justify their reasoning for being anti-gay? In these cultures the issue of gay marriage would never come up because the issue of revealing that you are gay could lead to death.

Are these cultures using morality to justify their reason, their religion, or their laws?

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Let me pose a somewhat hypothetical question:

Then what about cultures that are non-Christian (also non-Western) but are still very anti-gay? What basis are they using to justify their reasoning for being anti-gay? In these cultures the issue of gay marriage would never come up because the issue of revealing that you are gay could lead to death.

Are these cultures using morality to justify their reason, their religion, or their laws?

These cultures have absolutely no bearing on American law, nor a significant effect on the American response to laws attempting to legalize marriage for homosexuals.

It's totally irrelevant, and it's 100% a strawman - my argument does not apply anywhere except within the context of the American system of law.

If the United States were ruled by a junta or were a theocracy, obviously one moral authority could rule without any exception. Thankfully, it's not, so your examples are laughably irrelevant.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

These cultures have absolutely no bearing on American law, nor a significant effect on the American response to laws attempting to legalize marriage for homosexuals.

It's totally irrelevant, and it's 100% a strawman - my argument does not apply anywhere except within the context of the American system of law.

If the United States were ruled by a junta or were a theocracy, obviously one moral authority could rule without any exception. Thankfully, it's not, so your examples are laughably irrelevant.

EXACTLY!!! If the US was a nation that was run as you state, then there would be no consideration of a moral code or a religious one in terms of governing the people.

I never did say, nor, did I mean to imply that what happens outside the US should have any bearing on American law.

I posed the situation because so far in this thread people seem to want to make the issue based on one aspect or another, failing to recognize that there is some overlap among laws, morality and religion in this country when it comes to governing our lives. In some other cultures there is no overlap.

The current accepted concept of marriage in this country is legislated by laws, recognizes a legal union between a man and a woman, and this arrangement is also as promoted by Christianity, along with other religions.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

The current accepted concept of marriage in this country is legislated by laws, recognizes a legal union between a man and a woman, and this arrangement is also as promoted by Christianity, along with other religions.

Although there are Christian denominations who are not against gay marriage and there have been several laws that were once "current accepted concepts" but were challenged and changed because they were wrong. This is called progress and it resulted in voting rights for women and African Americans, the abolishment of slavery, the ability of women to own property, etc. In my view, it's time to revisit our "current accepted concept of marriage" and challenge it.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Although there are Christian denominations who are not against gay marriage and there have been several laws that were once "current accepted concepts" but were challenged and changed because they were wrong. This is called progress and it resulted in voting rights for women and African Americans, the abolishment of slavery, the ability of women to own property, etc. In my view, it's time to revisit our "current accepted concept of marriage" and challenge it.

No way, instead of recognizing equal rights for black Americans, we should have just altered the definition of "white."

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Although there are Christian denominations who are not against gay marriage and there have been several laws that were once "current accepted concepts" but were challenged and changed because they were wrong. This is called progress and it resulted in voting rights for women and African Americans, the abolishment of slavery, the ability of women to own property, etc. In my view, it's time to revisit our "current accepted concept of marriage" and challenge it.

I see your point. But for me the issue of gay marriage has no equal magnitude in terms of changing society as did Women's Rights and Civil Rights. The extent to which women and minorities suffered is far greater than what gays experience. Gays have not been denied the right to vote, the right to dictate what happens to thier bodies, the right to choose where they live, work, play, socialize. Nor the right to receive an fair and equal education to that of White males.

My point with the hypothetical post was to illustrate that some of our current laws are based in a combination from legal, moral and religious issues.

[doogur]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Gays have not been denied...the right to dictate what happens to thier bodies, the right to choose where they live, work, play, socialize.

You're kidding, right?

[Rudey]

So we protect animals by slaughtering them?

And incest is banned because the government doesn't want to pay the costs to monitor for freak children?

Originally Posted by KSig RC

But I'm not saying any of those things - I'm saying that, when a law is purely based on a moral expectation, you can't use a narrow moral authority (such as a subset of certain religions), particularly an excluded subsection of moral authorities (such as religion in general), as dictum.

Incest and bestiality laws do not have root in a narrow moral authority - they are instead rooted in protection against predators for those without means to protect themselves (animals, children). Adult incest creates genetic problems that have no way to be monitored, and as such preventative measures are likely appropriate. First cousins are allowed to be married in many states, because that's (apparently) the scientific cut-off for safety. Some people can do heroin without harming others or themselves, but we don't take them into consideration for legislative purposes.

Polygamy laws originally had a similar intent, if I'm not mistaken - to prevent children from being leveraged into a polygamist situation. Whether that applies today, I'm not sure, but I'm willing to cede that point completely (it really is somewhat odd that polygamy is specifically outlawed).

This isn't about "selective" morality, it's about avoiding selective morality (using Christian morality) by staying away from stupid laws regarding wholly irrelevant issues like marriage.

[JonoBN41]

To take this discussion to its logical conclusion*, if an undershirt married a pair of long johns, would it result in a union suit (ie US vs Hanes)? Would it matter if the garments were male or female; gay or straight? Could either side win or would it be a wash, or would one side fold? Would there be legal briefs?

Discuss amongst yourselves. Personally, I think it's morally wrong for undergarments to marry.

*absurdity

[DeltAlum]

"union suit?"

Help us.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Rudey

So we protect animals by slaughtering them?

No - we protect animals by passing laws against unethical treatment. This is why it's legal to slaughter animals in the most humane way possible, and not legal to just up and kill an animal for no reason or with undue cruelty.

Animals are property, but still subject to cruelty laws. You know all of this, and that animal husbandry is not an analog in the slightest - c'mon.

Originally Posted by Rudey

And incest is banned because the government doesn't want to pay the costs to monitor for freak children?

... along with the corresponding protection of children from parents/other family members. Yes.