Understanding Black Patriotism

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I don't think that view is limited to non-whites. The Dixie Chicks got pretty slammed for speaking out against our President. The greatest thing about the U.S. is that we are supposed to be allowed to express when we don't agree with what our government officials are doing.

Another great thing is the ability to boycott a Dixie Chicks album because you disagree with them going to a foreign country and voicing disapproval with our president.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I don't think that view is limited to non-whites. The Dixie Chicks got pretty slammed for speaking out against our President. The greatest thing about the U.S. is that we are supposed to be allowed to express when we don't agree with what our government officials are doing.

They got slammed because of 1) the timing of their comments as 9-11 and the war were relatively fresh and 2) the political alignment of their fan base who felt they were being saturated with liberalism and anti-American sentiments.

Of course this view isn't limited to nonwhites. However, the reason why understanding black patriotism is an issue is because of the belief that whites can express certain viewpoints and, in most but not all contexts, be called critical and reflective whereas blacks are called ungrateful (Pat Buchanan said it best ) and unpatriotic. This is why the Black Church and other pillars of the black community have been a political, economic, and social strong force. This is why Jeremiah Wright, for example, was able to expouse certain viewpoints behind the pulpit, although not every Black pastor chooses to use the pulpit in that manner. But using it as such is common place and Wright's recent and old comments wouldn't have been a topic of much discussion if it had not been for his relationship with Obama.

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

...But if your love for America is arguably contingent upon a vision of "progress" that many find dangerous, we may soon find a country of adverse patriots.

...you did say "arguably," so I'll ask you to expound -- how do you arrive at the conclusion that Obama's love of country is somehow "contingent" on progress? It seems to me that Obama's thesis has been that despite its halting dance with race relations, he yet finds the nation enobling, becuase it's given him the advantage and opportunity he enjoys today.

...also, as to your "contingency" argument, if this were the case, are you suggesting that would somehow be wrong, or "less than" any other expression of love of country?

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Dyson has to say something out there to still be invited on Politically Incorrect...

At any rate, if I understand the OP link, Dyson is saying how Blacks can be patriotic or not. Or rather why should they be? I mean you can drive up in to the most gang infested hoods and you might be hard pressed to find too many folks flying the US flag... They just don't fly flags in the hood, G... However, in SOME neighborhoods, like where I grew up, you would probably find flag waving Black folks because they actually do serve, high up in the military... But that is the ONLY location I have actively seen Black folks flying anything other than a "bird"...

Should I, someone who says they are Black, LOVE all that America is and of and show my patriotism now? I have experienced racism at the hands of the government directly, so it is hard for me to be patriotic and proud of my country when I have been treated unfairly. But, I have had opportunities that would not have happened if I lived anywhere else. So basically, I view July 4th as a nice BBQ/Fireworks holiday spending all my dead presidents on with my family, et al.

You know in some places...you would be accused of having a 'chip' on your shoulder...or being an 'angry black woman."

[Ronnie B]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Understanding Black Patriotism

Thursday, Apr. 24, 2008 By MICHAEL ERIC DYSON

Mainstream America has shown little understanding lately of the patriotism that a lot of black people practice. Black love of country is often far more robust and complicated than the lapel-pin nationalism some citizens swear by. Barack Obama hinted at this when he declared in Montana a few weeks ago, "I love this country not because it's perfect but because we've always been able to move it closer to perfection. Because through revolution and slavery ... generations of Americans have shown their love of country by struggling and sacrificing and risking their lives to bring us that much closer to our founding promise."

That's a far cry from the "My country, right or wrong" credo, which confuses blind boosterism with a more authentic, if sometimes questioning, loyalty. At their best, black folk offer critical patriotism, an exacting devotion that carries on a lover's quarrel with America while they shed blood in its defense.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...734809,00.html


*applause*

Yeah, I was feelin' this.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

You know in some places...you would be accused of having a 'chip' on your shoulder...or being an 'angry black woman."

Yes, you piss me off all the time!

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

*applause*

I remember last week on Michael Baisden's radio show when an analyst said "when blacks express harsh but honest views on America, they are called angry, ungrateful, and unpatriotic" but "when nonblacks express harsh but honest views on America, they are called critical and reflective."

I am looking for that full quote, please let me know if you find it.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

I am looking for that full quote, please let me know if you find it.

I don't even know the name of the man who said it and I probably added a descriptive. I think the only way to find it would be to listen to the entire links to the show from Baisden's site.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Yes, you piss me off all the time!

I try....

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

I don't even know the name of the man who said it and I probably added a descriptive. I think the only way to find it would be to listen to the entire links to the show from Baisden's site.

Dr Michael Eric Dyson

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Dr Michael Eric Dyson

I didn't even know he was a guest on the show that day because I caught it mid-discussion. Thanks.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by TonyB06

...you did say "arguably," so I'll ask you to expound -- how do you arrive at the conclusion that Obama's love of country is somehow "contingent" on progress? It seems to me that Obama's thesis has been that despite its halting dance with race relations, he yet finds the nation enobling, becuase it's given him the advantage and opportunity he enjoys today.

...also, as to your "contingency" argument, if this were the case, are you suggesting that would somehow be wrong, or "less than" any other expression of love of country?

Hey sorry I didn't get around to this until now.

Your assessment of Obama may be exactly correct. I don't really arrive at any conclusions, I have no idea what Barack's motivations are or how sincere his affection is.

But, I think it is reasonably valid for people to wonder about his love for this country when he's so focused on progressive politics. Actually, this is true for any far left "progressive," not just Obama. I think we all look at America, or should, and see things that could make the country better. But if you're someone who possesses arguably-radical ideas about what America should be, and most of your expressions of affection refer to that, people who love America the way it is may question that.

Ideally we'd all look at slavery or racial discrimination and recognize that shifting away from these things, or at least making strides in the latter, are good changes that have made America better. But is infringing on the free market good? That is a lot more disputable. Both sides are presumably patriotic, they just love America for different reasons. So yeah, I think it is reasonable for someone to say "well, do you love America now, or do you just love the progress we've made and what you think it'll be like after?" I wouldn't say that is my view of Obama, but people who are staunchly opposed to his vision of America are likely to ask such questions.

Lets say he does only really love what America could be, is that less patriotic? I dunno, patriotism is something I have trouble wrapping my brain around. I certainly would adamantly disagree with him, but there are plenty of patriots who I think would destroy America. Personally I'm not really concerned about his patriotism, it is much too broad a concept. I don't really care if he loves his country if i think his vision of that country is fundamentally opposed to mine.

[Tom Earp]

It see that many do not know history?

Blacks fought on both sides of the Civil War.
Blacks became known as buffalo soldiers as the protected the West duiring the Indian Wars.

Harrys S Truman edicted that Blacks in WWII were able to finght and have equal rights in the Military.

The Tuskagee Air Men were one of the most highly decorated fighting squardrons in WWII.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

It see that many do not know history?

Blacks fought on both sides of the Civil War.
Blacks became known as buffalo soldiers as the protected the West duiring the Indian Wars.

Harrys S Truman edicted that Blacks in WWII were able to finght and have equal rights in the Military.

The Tuskagee Air Men were one of the most highly decorated fighting squardrons in WWII.

A lot of people know this but it doesn't change this discussion.