Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

[nittanyalum]

Hey troll, or Peb, or whatever, this is a group whose founder is in jail for arranging a "marriage" between a 14-year-old and HER COUSIN. Spout all the platitudes you want about goverment interference, child services being "broken", etc., but no, these children would not be better off back on the compound. They will turn out just like their mothers and fathers who are also products of this cultish system. I think if the women would be willing to leave the compound (and the FLDS), they possibly should have the opportunity to get their children back. IF it can somehow be assured that they would NEVER let some 50-year-old come along and "marry" their 14 or 15 year old and add her to his pile of wives.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Pebcake

But the trauma to the people involved in this 'rescue' is probably worse than any they suffered before.

Somehow I doubt it.

BTW, is your "inner city" abuse occuring in a compound that is essentially closed to outsiders?

Are the children (and the women, for that mattter) allowed to leave? (Not do they lack the ability to leave, but are the actually prevented, at risk of their eternal salvation, from leaving?)

Are the cases of abuse all individual, or is it part of a pervasive social system, perceived to be divinely prescribed, imposed within the compound?

Do you have strong reason to believe that the residents of the compound came there not that long ago because local authorities and local media were looking at them a little too closely where they were before?

Was the leader of the group that the people in your inner city belong to recently convicted for statutory rape for activities directly related to the claims of child abuse in this most recent case?

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

As for the timing and the way this was carried out, I strongly suspect that somewhere in the future, we will find out that there is a lot more beneath the surface of this story than we know right now.

I think you're right about that.

[Pebcake]

Sorry I posted about this. Thought this was an open discussion.

[nittanyalum]

It is open. You're just wrong.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Pebcake

Sorry I posted about this. Thought this was an open discussion.

It is! Nice move, though, trying to suggest that we're disagreeing with what you've said because this apparently isn't an open discussion, rather than accepting the simpler (and more accurate) explanation -- we're not buying what you're arguing.

"Open discussion" doesn't mean that every opinion given is of equal value. "Open discussion" means a poster is free to say whatever he or she wants to say, and everyone else is free to respond. And sometimes that response is going to be something along the lines of "What you said is stupid."

ETA: My teammate nittanyalum and I posted at about the same time. She did a much better job than I of being succinct.

[Pebcake]

At any rate, it will be interesting to see how this plays out in court.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by Pebcake

According to the NBC news, the raid was organized because of a call from a girl claiming abuse. To date, this girl has not been identified. I am not an advocate for this group. I am an advocate for our rights. If an unidentified person claimed you had abused your child, your child would be taken from you and kept from you until authorities decided rather you should have your child.

......and there is something wrong with making sure a child isn't being abused?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

The men have definitely taken the back seat and it seems to be both due to the gender norms in their sect and also about what appeals to the "court of public opinion."

They showed a few men at the court hearing the other day and interviewed a couple of them. However, it seems like the women (surprise, surprise) are taking a lot of the blame for this and are the ones who are very visible because they are appealing on behalf of motherhood/what's supposedly best for the kids.

I think that this may be related to the polygamy. Since many of these women aren't legally married, they're often collecting public aid as a single mother. If the fathers take responsibility for the children of his extra wives, both parents can be prosecuted for fraud. Essentially they'd have to admit to the polygamy and/or to the identities of the fathers so the state could pursue child support. Apparently this is one of the more common ways that polygamy of this sort is prosecuted.

Also possible that the guys are even creepier looking.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by macallan25

......and there is something wrong with making sure a child isn't being abused?

Thank you!

And Pebcake, you're exaggerating. The state does not take children no matter the complaint, but they investigate (in this case it was a "raid") and then take action based on their investigation. YES they're going to go to the home (compound) and YES they're going to take every accusation seriously.

The FLDS who are complaining that the call was a fraud are missing the point that any complaint is investigated. I could call on the compound in Arizona right now and "complain" and someone would go investigate.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

As for the timing and the way this was carried out, I strongly suspect that somewhere in the future, we will find out that there is a lot more beneath the surface of this story than we know right now.

What that might be, I wouldn't care to speculate -- and under the circumstances, neither should the media or the rest of us.

I'll speculate though... in that I'm pretty sure that there'll be a Canadian connection to this whole thing.

There was a split in the FLDS of sorts up in Canada with the enclave in Bountiful being split between Jeffs and Bishop Winston Blackmore... a split that saw the airing of some "dirty laundry" in the political and theological snipping between the two. It was even suggested in the media two years ago that Winston was helping the RCMP and FBI by feeding them info about Jeffs activities.

Regardless, the RCMP, BC Attorney General, and CSIS have all had a long and healthy interest in the group, investigating allegations of abuse dating back to the 80s... allegations supported by some of those who "defected" from the cult. Of course the problem then, as now, is that these allegations of abuse can't be pursued legally without a victim or witness willing to testify... and if the authorities happened to have a victim or witness come forward they'd certainly act on that a swoop in, all while (I assume) issuing vague or misleading public statements to protect the identity of their source(s) from retaliation by the fanatics within the cult.

[Pebcake]

I may be wrong, but I did watch a segment on 20/20 where the parents were on the program because there had been a complaint that there was abuse happening in the household. The social worker came, couldn't decide if it might be true or not, so took the child just to be safe. Turns out the call had been made by a disgruntled nanny. In the meantime, the child was raped in the foster home. I don't remember which state the story focused on.

[Leslie Anne]

Originally Posted by Pebcake

I may be wrong, but I did watch a segment on 20/20 where the parents were on the program because there had been a complaint that there was abuse happening in the household. The social worker came, couldn't decide if it might be true or not, so took the child just to be safe. Turns out the call had been made by a disgruntled nanny. In the meantime, the child was raped in the foster home. I don't remember which state the story focused on.

Um, okay....and this little anecdote fits into the topic at hand how?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Pebcake

I may be wrong, but I did watch a segment on 20/20 where the parents were on the program because there had been a complaint that there was abuse happening in the household. The social worker came, couldn't decide if it might be true or not, so took the child just to be safe. Turns out the call had been made by a disgruntled nanny. In the meantime, the child was raped in the foster home. I don't remember which state the story focused on.

Terrible tragic things happen everywhere. Anecdotes are not statistics. What if the SW had left the child and the father raped her.

After a complaint is made, an investigation occurs, and a child is only taken if the case worker either determines the situation is unsafe or is unable to determine that the situation is safe.

The terrors of the foster care system is a problem that needs to be fixed, but not at the expense of children staying with abusive parents.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Pebcake

I may be wrong, but I did watch a segment on 20/20 where the parents were on the program because there had been a complaint that there was abuse happening in the household. The social worker came, couldn't decide if it might be true or not, so took the child just to be safe. Turns out the call had been made by a disgruntled nanny. In the meantime, the child was raped in the foster home. I don't remember which state the story focused on.

OMG DO YOU NOT GET IT????

This is not about ONE child in a private home. This is about years and years in a compound, with NUMEROUS complaints over the years.

Jeez, if you're so up on this lifestyle, go be someone's 6th wife or something.

[Pebcake]

33girl, I get it. I get that you are rude and arrogant. You are so sure you are right? I am not an expert on this lifestyle, but surely you must be. If you were not an expert, you could not be so convinced that you know everything. I don't like to be rude, but I guess you brought it out with you silly remarks about being a 6th wife.