"Shame on you, Barack Obama"

[preciousjeni]

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

While most of what McCain has on his website regarding his ideas surrounding foreign policy is tame, some of his comments in person have been a bit disconcerting. I'm in favor of more diplomatic measures and I'm rather tired of America's hubris and isolationism when it comes to other world governments. For example, we currently have a very pro-American French ally and we are not fostering that relationship in any useful way.

This. Oh so very much this. Could we stop saber rattling at Iran and make some friends again? If Obama wasn't in this race I'd say vote for any woman just so we could stop playing "Mine's bigger!" with every dictator around. Obama doesn't seem to play like that and though he's inexperienced officially he's done quite a lot in Kenya and other places where he has friends and family.

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Yeah the pee one was just random and the UFO one plays into the whole idea that Clinton is pushing that Obama supporters are naive, delusional, expect the heavens to part etc.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Yeah the pee one was just random and the UFO one plays into the whole idea that Clinton is pushing that Obama supporters are naive, delusional, expect the heavens to part etc.

I feel that way about many Obama supporters. I didn't know Clinton was making that part of her platform () until I saw her rally the other day where she was making fun of Obama.

While I agree with what she said and smirked a little, it's a bad political tactic that makes her look desperate. A commentator said that's not "politics" and while it got a great crowd response at a rally, it will do more harm than good for her campaign.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

I feel that way about many Obama supporters. I didn't know Clinton was making that part of her platform () until I saw her rally the other day where she was making fun of Obama.

While I agree with what she said and smirked a little, it's a bad political tactic that makes her look desperate. A commentator said that's not "politics" and while it got a great crowd response at a rally, it will do more harm than good for her campaign.

There are always political "fanboys" just like there are for anything else. Obama attracts more people so perhaps he has more of them, but they do not seem to be in the majority by any means. Are newspapers and politicians who endorse him also delusional? Why must "hope" be framed as "naivete?"

Clinton just makes herself look desperate and has helped the media shift the focus from her vs. Obama to "Which side of Hillary Clinton will we see at the debate?"

ETA: According to MSNBC this morning Obama is up nationally 54% to 38% and has pulled ahead in Texas.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Obama attracts more people so perhaps he has more of them, but they do not seem to be in the majority by any means.

Maybe, maybe not. That would depend on your frame of reference. I would love to see a survey of Obama supporters to see how many can actually provide detail on his plan for America.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Are newspapers and politicians who endorse him also delusional?

If they only talk about the change rhetoric, yes.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Why must "hope" be framed as "naivete?"

Because Obama isn't the messiah and putting every egg in one basket based on rhetoric is dumb. Change should be on concerned-people's agenda whether Obama becomes president or not. If he doesn't win or if his presidency doesn't pan out the way his worshippers expected, concerned-people need to be able to further the change agenda rather than lose their minds because their messiah isn't a messiah..

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Maybe, maybe not. That would depend on your frame of reference. I would love to see a survey of Obama supporters to see how many can actually provide detail on his plan for America.




If they only talk about the change rhetoric, yes.



Because Obama isn't the messiah and putting every egg in one basket based on rhetoric is dumb. Change should be on concerned-people's agenda whether Obama becomes president or not. If he doesn't win or if his presidency doesn't pan out the way his worshippers expected, concerned-people need to be able to further the change agenda rather than lose their minds because their messiah isn't a messiah..

But I don't think anyone thinks Obama is the messiah. And his speeches contain both rhetoric and policy. I disagree that many of his supporters are just going along for a ride on the change-mobile.

I saw an entertaining video on youtube that was by a "skeptic" who pokes at political campaigns and he went up to a college age kid asking him questions about Obama at an Obama event (outside in line I think). He was clearly expecting the kid to know nothing, as soon as the kid made it clear he knew the answer he asked another question, but the kid answers every question with a lot of thought and knowledge and the guy's tone turns out to be pleasantly surprised and impressed. Since it's the internet it could have been a setup, but it didn't look like it.

I believe in the message of hope, but I'm also listening to the whole message and that's why I support Obama the way I do now.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

But I don't think anyone thinks Obama is the messiah.

Some people do, actually, of course not saying "messiah" but the overall point. Saying things like "he is how this country is going to get better...change, change, change will happen because of him" is definitely missing the point of what change is really about. Obama supporters are doing the in-person and email thing that has become increasingly annoying to some people.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

And his speeches contain both rhetoric and policy.

Hmmmm....

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I disagree that many of his supporters are just going along for a ride on the change-mobile.

Again, this could be based on your frame of reference.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I saw an entertaining video on youtube that was by a "skeptic" who pokes at political campaigns and he went up to a college age kid asking him questions about Obama at an Obama event (outside in line I think). He was clearly expecting the kid to know nothing, as soon as the kid made it clear he knew the answer he asked another question, but the kid answers every question with a lot of thought and knowledge and the guy's tone turns out to be pleasantly surprised and impressed. Since it's the internet it could have been a setup, but it didn't look like it.

I posted that video and its follow-up in the Random Thread the other day.

Obama just got lucky that day.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I believe in the message of hope, but I'm also listening to the whole message and that's why I support Obama the way I do now.

That's personal. I'm not talking personal.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

This. Oh so very much this. Could we stop saber rattling at Iran and make some friends again? If Obama wasn't in this race I'd say vote for any woman just so we could stop playing "Mine's bigger!" with every dictator around. Obama doesn't seem to play like that and though he's inexperienced officially he's done quite a lot in Kenya and other places where he has friends and family.

Ah, it's certainly good to hear that Obama's connections in Nairobi are sound. I've long considered the (overwhelmingly internal) corruption in Kenya on par with the psychotic anti-American, terrorist-sponsoring, human-rights-violating tack preferred (and proffered) by Tehran.

Look, feel free to be pacifistic all you want - that's what America is all about. But this is essentially the "you need dicks in this world" monologue from Team America in action - I would be appalled if Obama took a soft stance (ineffective sanctions would be a grand example) on Iran going forward.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Ah, it's certainly good to hear that Obama's connections in Nairobi are sound. I've long considered the (overwhelmingly internal) corruption in Kenya on par with the psychotic anti-American, terrorist-sponsoring, human-rights-violating tack preferred (and proffered) by Tehran.

Look, feel free to be pacifistic all you want - that's what America is all about. But this is essentially the "you need dicks in this world" monologue from Team America in action - I would be appalled if Obama took a soft stance (ineffective sanctions would be a grand example) on Iran going forward.

My only point was that he has more foreign relations experience than people give him credit for. He's said he'll be tough in Afghanistan and has emphasized that his number one priority is to keep the American people safe, it's just a change in tactics. It's not a pacifist POV, btw. I'm more of a Just War person and I would serve in this nation's military if necessary. Blowing off someone who wants to increase our positive foreign relations - with countries who are our allies no less - as pacifism is ignoring the fact that Americans are thought poorly of in much of the world. American patriotism is associated with jingoism and preemptive strikes, not loving our country.

There's a difference between ineffective sanctions and going "We're going to have to go to war with Iran" every five minutes. We almost went to war because we listened to a joke broadcast when two ships were standing off. Seriously, put the dicks, and Team America, away.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

My only point was that he has more foreign relations experience than people give him credit for. He's said he'll be tough in Afghanistan and has emphasized that his number one priority is to keep the American people safe, it's just a change in tactics. It's not a pacifist POV, btw. I'm more of a Just War person and I would serve in this nation's military if necessary.

Foreign policy experience is not the same as "connections in Kenya" - and I openly question whether that experience carries over into a dangerous and difficult situation such as Iran. That's my point.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Blowing off someone who wants to increase our positive foreign relations - with countries who are our allies no less - as pacifism is ignoring the fact that Americans are thought poorly of in much of the world. American patriotism is associated with jingoism and preemptive strikes, not loving our country.

I'm all for increasing positive foreign relationships - that's been one of the downfalls of the Bush administration, I'll certainly agree. But it is pandering to associate my post with jingoism, especially when you've chosen the intentionally inflammatory "dick measuring contest" metaphor as your base of attack.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

There's a difference between ineffective sanctions and going "We're going to have to go to war with Iran" every five minutes. We almost went to war because we listened to a joke broadcast when two ships were standing off. Seriously, put the dicks, and Team America, away.

You either missed my point, or chose not to acknowledge it because of how I packaged it - that's pretty shitty, but to each her own.

There is a difference between the two, of course - there are also situations where "positive foreign relations" is a poor course to follow. Iran is likely a bigger threat to Americans than Iraq or Afghanistan. Sometimes force is required - and, since you're not a pacifist, you'll surely agree with that.