Is it time to change who we think of as legacies?

[UGAalum94]

Can you tell me why exactly she wasn't a fit for that chapter? I don't know the girl or her mom, obviously, but if you can without divulging MS, what were the aspects of "fit" we're talking about?

[adpiucf]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

Can you tell me why exactly she wasn't a fit for that chapter? I don't know the girl or her mom, obviously, but if you can without divulging MS, what were the aspects of "fit" we're talking about?

No. To do so would divulge too many aspects of MS. But the decision to drop a high profile legacy in this case was not made lightly-- and was not without consequences-- namely, the withdrawal of the mother's financial and volunteer support to the sorority and her chapter of initiation.

[bejazd]

That is so sad. I can see how I, personally, would be torn between wanting the chapter to give that legacy special consideration, as a matter of loyalty to the mom, yet also I would not want the chapter to pledge someone they did not want as a sister. That would be depriving the legacy to go out and join a chapter that did truly want and love her.

At some of these schools where the number of legacies is so large, do you think it would help to relax silence rules to allow the chapters to host "legacy" teas close to the start of recruitment? almost like a separate open house? or would that just make the problem worse?

My tendency is to want to eliminate the "legacy" title during recruitment so it isn't limiting the PNMs options. But then again, we all want to give legacies special consideration, but don't know how to do it in a way that is fair to the PNM and demonstrates loyalty to the sister, without giving the impression that a legacy is going to be guaranteed a bid, and without restricting the chapter's ability to choose its own members without outside pressure. any thoughts anyone?

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by adpiucf

No. To do so would divulge too many aspects of MS. But the decision to drop a high profile legacy in this case was not made lightly-- and was not without consequences-- namely, the withdrawal of the mother's financial and volunteer support to the sorority and her chapter of initiation.

I understand, and I'm not trying to press for more, particularly in this specific case.

But one of things that is frustrating in talking about the legacy issue is that because the chapter can't openly say why they cut her or what was discussed, it kind of leaves the situation seeming that one hand you've got the mom's involvement and years of dedicated service and apparently a strong desire to share this sisterhood bond with her daughter and on the other, we've got "fit."

And at some places, "fit" is the term to use when someone isn't as pretty as the rest of the chapter, which while it's certainly a plus to have gorgeous girls in your chapter, is harder to see as a truly valid reason to drop a legacy in light of most of what many groups officially consider for MS: scholarship, leadership and involvement, character, etc.

So the only times that anyone can ever say why a girl was cut without violating the rules of her own org. is when she is repeating something that she probably shouldn't even know in the first place has someone else not broken the rules of her org.

And it means that we're having a conversation with one half of the evidence missing, you know?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

And it means that we're having a conversation with one half of the evidence missing, you know?

Considering it's a conversation we're not particularly supposed to be having, that's not surprising.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Considering it's a conversation we're not particularly supposed to be having, that's not surprising.

What do you mean? The why was someone really released part? That I'm with you on: if you validly know it because you were there, then you shouldn't be saying here.

But just talking about legacies and the policies that would be ideal doesn't seem in any way forbidden.

My GLO's legacy policy is pretty open. I'm not completely sure that it should be this easily retrievable, but you can google and get a copy of the policy and form itself.

[adpiucf]

A policy or a form are public knowledge; the goings-on specific to how a chapter conducts MS on a specific person is not.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by adpiucf

A policy or a form are public knowledge; the goings-on specific to how a chapter conducts MS on a specific person is not.

Yeah, and I'm sorry if I was asking for too much earlier. It's just that aspect that makes figuring out how to reform any policies really hard. It's either lame FOAF stories or divulged MS that one is basing the info. on.

I don't mean I need or want to know anything particularly, because I don't even have a real dog in this fight with either a legacy or a chapter that I'm advising, but without a lot of insight into how and why legacies are getting cut, it's hard to know if the policies are working well.

ETA: It's kind of interesting that it's only the legacies who seem to be cut for nebulous or (what people who know the legacy suspect are very) superficial reasons that you ever hear about with legacy policies complaints. When the people who aren't in MS find out that a legacy who they know has a 2.1 gets cut or who has a terrible hometown reputation or zero personality has gotten cut, and I think alumnae do realize and know these things even if the mom doesn't, does that ever become a big deal? It's only the idea that we use terms like "fit" that suggest to some it wasn't for a good reason. Maybe a policy that requires the chapter to list a specific reason would be the best policy of all. I don't even mean that they would have to tell the mom or the sister, just that they would have to own up to IHQ that they cut the legacy of a devoted member because of her appearance.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

What do you mean? The why was someone really released part? That I'm with you on: if you validly know it because you were there, then you shouldn't be saying here.

But just talking about legacies and the policies that would be ideal doesn't seem in any way forbidden.

My GLO's legacy policy is pretty open. I'm not completely sure that it should be this easily retrievable, but you can google and get a copy of the policy and form itself.

I'm just saying you're not going to get the other half of the conversation, because it's not one that you (or anyone who was not present) as the right to know. Quite frankly I don't think that a chapter and its advisors would toss a VIP legacy aside for because her nose was too big or for some other frivolus reason. "Fit" is simply that. Yes, girls can be shallow as hell but no one wants to make that phone call. It is a shame that the mother in this case chose to turn her back on her sorority when they only did what she herself had done in MS during her college years.

I think it speaks more toward the entitlement of parents who think that their special snowflake daughter is more deserving than 50 other girls there. If it were me I would be sad that my daughter would not also be my sister, but I would also move on. Particularly if my daughter found her home elsewhere, whether in another sorority or on campus group. (Hell I'm a legacy that didn't go where I was supposed to.)

[UGAalum94]

Sorry. I got my signals crossed. I understood the reason that the half of the conversation was missing. I mentioned it in the post, so I thought you meant something else in addition.

I'm afraid that some legacies at the really big recruitments with a bunch of legacies going through DO get cut for reasons as superficial as anyone. I'd love it to be different, but I'm afraid that's the deal. Since you can't keep them all, there's a license to be pretty cavalier about the whole thing. You've got your ticket to second round, but that's it. And maybe that's like it ought to be, I don't know.

I suspect you are right in the particular case we were talking about because of the mother's involvement at that chapter and they wouldn't have written it off so easily, but I'll be honest, I'd be like that mom. At the point I've worked for a chapter for years, and I send my (seemingly well qualified) kid through rush and you cut here, I'm probably done with you. Your rejection of my (hypothetical) kid is going to be taken pretty personally. It's not the whole because she's my little (hypothetical) perfect snowflake, but because she's my (hypothetical) flesh and blood and you cut her.

I don't think I feel that way if I knew her GPA was way lower than average or that she didn't have involvement and leadership or any of the factors that are built in to consider. And if she was borderline autistic or freakishly shy, I think I'd know that too and understand that might get her cut too.

But "fit" isn't going to get it done as a good explanation. I've, as have we all, watched 18-22 year old women choose their social groups and the reasons that they use are not always good ones. I accept that membership is in the hands of the undergraduate chapter, but that doesn't mean I believe they are going to make good decisions all the time. And at the point I have direct personal experience with a group at a chapter making jerky decisions, I'm not going to keep working for them, assuming that I had been.

[pinkyphimu]

here is my two cents....

the schools that have twice the number of legacies going through rush are also those that:
-have "rules" that only take women from certain towns/ states
-people know you, your family, your pets, etc. and you couldn't hide your legacy status even if you wanted to
-are located in places where women are groomed for recruitment from birth...even their teachers say things like, "if you want to get in to a good sorority when you go to college, then you won't XYZ"

i also think the numbers are a bit inflated. patty pnm might be a legacy to kappa from her grandmother, chi o from her mother, and phi mu through her sister. one pnm counts as a legacy to three groups. there are probaly many women going through in the same situation, so....of course groups can have more legacies than quota.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by pinkyphimu

here is my two cents....

the schools that have twice the number of legacies going through rush are also those that:
-have "rules" that only take women from certain towns/ states
-people know you, your family, your pets, etc. and you couldn't hide your legacy status even if you wanted to
-are located in places where women are groomed for recruitment from birth...even their teachers say things like, "if you want to get in to a good sorority when you go to college, then you won't XYZ"

i also think the numbers are a bit inflated. patty pnm might be a legacy to kappa from her grandmother, chi o from her mother, and phi mu through her sister. one pnm counts as a legacy to three groups. there are probaly many women going through in the same situation, so....of course groups can have more legacies than quota.

I think the numbers are inflated for exactly the same reasons that you do and when you figure in the groups that the PNMs may think that they have special status with because of their aunts, cousins, whatever, even though they aren't really legacies, the list of relatives and connections to groups that many forms ask for is quite extensive.

But when a girl who is a legacy really wants a particular group, it's still a problem if the group doesn't want her even if she still has legacy status at other chapters. So there's no real way to cancel out the inflation in the numbers.