Is it time to change who we think of as legacies?

[PGD-GRAD]

Some of you are kidding yourselves by thinking that elevating yourselves to chapter advisors local alumni chapter officers will make a difference when your daughter/other relative legacy goes through. If you are talking large Southern schools, it will not mean beans. You all know that some chapters have configured themselves as all "Old South", etc.

I can speak of a girl who had personal letters from BOTH the current president and former president of her mother's sorority. (And I am speaking of a huge national.) Her mother had actually helped found a chapter of her GLO at a local college and was currently main advisor. Add to that that the chapter at the school the girl was attending had a field rep. there to help them because that particular group had "ended up 3rd choice on too many girls 1,2,3 choices in final parties. The girl in questions had nearly 1400 SAT, tons of activities, was beautiful and articulate, had been a deb at a Junior League ball, etc. BUT---she was FROM TOO FAR NORTH!!

S0--ladies--if letters and calls from your own national don't guarantee an invite back to prefs., nothing else you can do will.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by PGD-GRAD

Some of you are kidding yourselves by thinking that elevating yourselves to chapter advisors local alumni chapter officers will make a difference when your daughter/other relative legacy goes through. If you are talking large Southern schools, it will not mean beans. You all know that some chapters have configured themselves as all "Old South", etc.

I can speak of a girl who had personal letters from BOTH the current president and former president of her mother's sorority. (And I am speaking of a huge national.) Her mother had actually helped found a chapter of her GLO at a local college and was currently main advisor. Add to that that the chapter at the school the girl was attending had a field rep. there to help them because that particular group had "ended up 3rd choice on too many girls 1,2,3 choices in final parties. The girl in questions had nearly 1400 SAT, tons of activities, was beautiful and articulate, had been a deb at a Junior League ball, etc. BUT---she was FROM TOO FAR NORTH!!

S0--ladies--if letters and calls from your own national don't guarantee an invite back to prefs., nothing else you can do will.

And that's the kind of stuff that I just think is jerky all the way around. Here's a girl who should be an outstanding potential new member, but the local chapter decides to have an attitude and say that she's not a good fit geographically? That's junk.

It's not that I think her mom's involvement should make the difference, but that the organization is probably not being as true to it's founding principles and ritual if they are rejecting well qualified members to take someone who "fits" with them on a hometown level. That's not the point. Even the groups founded in the south have chapters outside the region.

And conversely, if the national group has a problem with who the chapter is choosing, they should address it systematically, not just because on influential pnm got turned down. Yes, membership selection belongs to the active members of the chapter, but they shouldn't be allowed to subvert the values of the group for stupid reasons and tank the chapter overall. You should need to see one particular girl get turned down before you catch on that something weird is going on.

[carnation]

Oh, well said!

[bejazd]

Originally Posted by PGD-GRAD

Some of you are kidding yourselves by thinking that elevating yourselves to chapter advisors local alumni chapter officers will make a difference when your daughter/other relative legacy goes through. If you are talking large Southern schools, it will not mean beans. You all know that some chapters have configured themselves as all "Old South", etc.

And don't kid yourself that subjectivity is limited to big Southern schools. I'll go out on a limb and say that most don't know what a debutante is, don't care where you're from, what your parents do for a living, what your activities resume looks like or what your SAT score is. They care about how you present yourself and whether or not they think they want to spend the next four years hanging out, studying, sharing laughter, tears and a bathroom with you.

If you've got a legacy going thru recruitment the best advice you can give her is to be herself, try to make the best impression she possibly can, give every chapter serious consideration, and know that whatever happens you'll be so happy for her and supportive of whatever works out for her.

[adpiucf]

Originally Posted by PGD-GRAD

I can speak of a girl who had personal letters from BOTH the current president and former president of her mother's sorority [...] BUT---she was FROM TOO FAR NORTH!!

[...] S0--ladies--if letters and calls from your own national don't guarantee an invite back to prefs., nothing else you can do will.

So I take it you were in the room when this PNM was formally released and voted on? Because having been through membership selection myself, and having been through the process with a national officer overseeing our recruitment, having been through the process of dropping a legacy, I find it very hard to believe someone would be cut specifically because of her geographic position... especially when there was so much pressure to bid such a high-profile legacy during a recruitment with a national officer present. Not to mention the advisers. There had to be a lot of screaming, crying and pleading to release that little girl from that sorority's recruitment... and they had to have a damn good reason to do so.

I agree that no amount of volunteering or influential letter-writing can guarantee any PNM a place in a sorority. And at the end of the day, it is the chapter's choice. But releasing a legacy, especially one who is high-profile, is not an easy task and has to involve more than a dismissive wave of the hand.

Years ago, a chapter alumna of XYZ State University was actively involved on the local and international level for ADPi. Her two daughters rushed at separate schools. One rushed at the campus where her mother had local influence and joined ADPi. The second daughter rushed at mom's alma mater where mom had international influence and was dropped from ADPi before prefs. I know the girl; she wasn't a fit for this chapter. Mom was pissed and is no longer involved with ADPi.

That ADPi mom was involved enough to know our legacy policy. It's a shame. We lost a terrific alumna volunteer, but I think her non-ADPi daughter and the ADPi chapter in question were better off going their separate ways.

Being a legacy isn't enough of a reason to get a bid. It's going to be your chapter, not your legacy sister's.

[UGAalum94]

Can you tell me why exactly she wasn't a fit for that chapter? I don't know the girl or her mom, obviously, but if you can without divulging MS, what were the aspects of "fit" we're talking about?

[adpiucf]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

Can you tell me why exactly she wasn't a fit for that chapter? I don't know the girl or her mom, obviously, but if you can without divulging MS, what were the aspects of "fit" we're talking about?

No. To do so would divulge too many aspects of MS. But the decision to drop a high profile legacy in this case was not made lightly-- and was not without consequences-- namely, the withdrawal of the mother's financial and volunteer support to the sorority and her chapter of initiation.

[bejazd]

That is so sad. I can see how I, personally, would be torn between wanting the chapter to give that legacy special consideration, as a matter of loyalty to the mom, yet also I would not want the chapter to pledge someone they did not want as a sister. That would be depriving the legacy to go out and join a chapter that did truly want and love her.

At some of these schools where the number of legacies is so large, do you think it would help to relax silence rules to allow the chapters to host "legacy" teas close to the start of recruitment? almost like a separate open house? or would that just make the problem worse?

My tendency is to want to eliminate the "legacy" title during recruitment so it isn't limiting the PNMs options. But then again, we all want to give legacies special consideration, but don't know how to do it in a way that is fair to the PNM and demonstrates loyalty to the sister, without giving the impression that a legacy is going to be guaranteed a bid, and without restricting the chapter's ability to choose its own members without outside pressure. any thoughts anyone?

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by adpiucf

No. To do so would divulge too many aspects of MS. But the decision to drop a high profile legacy in this case was not made lightly-- and was not without consequences-- namely, the withdrawal of the mother's financial and volunteer support to the sorority and her chapter of initiation.

I understand, and I'm not trying to press for more, particularly in this specific case.

But one of things that is frustrating in talking about the legacy issue is that because the chapter can't openly say why they cut her or what was discussed, it kind of leaves the situation seeming that one hand you've got the mom's involvement and years of dedicated service and apparently a strong desire to share this sisterhood bond with her daughter and on the other, we've got "fit."

And at some places, "fit" is the term to use when someone isn't as pretty as the rest of the chapter, which while it's certainly a plus to have gorgeous girls in your chapter, is harder to see as a truly valid reason to drop a legacy in light of most of what many groups officially consider for MS: scholarship, leadership and involvement, character, etc.

So the only times that anyone can ever say why a girl was cut without violating the rules of her own org. is when she is repeating something that she probably shouldn't even know in the first place has someone else not broken the rules of her org.

And it means that we're having a conversation with one half of the evidence missing, you know?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

And it means that we're having a conversation with one half of the evidence missing, you know?

Considering it's a conversation we're not particularly supposed to be having, that's not surprising.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Considering it's a conversation we're not particularly supposed to be having, that's not surprising.

What do you mean? The why was someone really released part? That I'm with you on: if you validly know it because you were there, then you shouldn't be saying here.

But just talking about legacies and the policies that would be ideal doesn't seem in any way forbidden.

My GLO's legacy policy is pretty open. I'm not completely sure that it should be this easily retrievable, but you can google and get a copy of the policy and form itself.

[pinkyphimu]

here is my two cents....

the schools that have twice the number of legacies going through rush are also those that:
-have "rules" that only take women from certain towns/ states
-people know you, your family, your pets, etc. and you couldn't hide your legacy status even if you wanted to
-are located in places where women are groomed for recruitment from birth...even their teachers say things like, "if you want to get in to a good sorority when you go to college, then you won't XYZ"

i also think the numbers are a bit inflated. patty pnm might be a legacy to kappa from her grandmother, chi o from her mother, and phi mu through her sister. one pnm counts as a legacy to three groups. there are probaly many women going through in the same situation, so....of course groups can have more legacies than quota.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by pinkyphimu

here is my two cents....

the schools that have twice the number of legacies going through rush are also those that:
-have "rules" that only take women from certain towns/ states
-people know you, your family, your pets, etc. and you couldn't hide your legacy status even if you wanted to
-are located in places where women are groomed for recruitment from birth...even their teachers say things like, "if you want to get in to a good sorority when you go to college, then you won't XYZ"

i also think the numbers are a bit inflated. patty pnm might be a legacy to kappa from her grandmother, chi o from her mother, and phi mu through her sister. one pnm counts as a legacy to three groups. there are probaly many women going through in the same situation, so....of course groups can have more legacies than quota.

I think the numbers are inflated for exactly the same reasons that you do and when you figure in the groups that the PNMs may think that they have special status with because of their aunts, cousins, whatever, even though they aren't really legacies, the list of relatives and connections to groups that many forms ask for is quite extensive.

But when a girl who is a legacy really wants a particular group, it's still a problem if the group doesn't want her even if she still has legacy status at other chapters. So there's no real way to cancel out the inflation in the numbers.