Is it time to change who we think of as legacies?

[MSKKG]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Also, Chi Omega's policy of not including grandmothers is interesting, because your mom was a legacy, and she either continued the tradition or didn't. If sh did, you are a legacy through your mom, and if she didn't, then maybe Chi Omega isn't that important to your family.

Not always the case. If your mom went to a university with no Chi O chapter, that doesn't mean Chi O wasn't important to her family. If your mom didn't pledge any GLO for whatever reason, that still doesn't mean Chi O wasn't important to her family. Also, what if Chi O released her? Chi O might have been high on your mom's list, but she was never given the chance to become a member because of the chapter's choice.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by MSKKG

Not always the case. If your mom went to a university with no Chi O chapter, that doesn't mean Chi O wasn't important to her family. If your mom didn't pledge any GLO for whatever reason, that still doesn't mean Chi O wasn't important to her family. Also, what if Chi O released her? Chi O might have been high on your mom's list, but she was never given the chance to become a member because of the chapter's choice.

I agree. It could also be your paternal grandmother who is the member. Your father couldn't have joined that GLO, but it doesn't mean that your family is any less dedicated.

On how many campuses is this really an issue? It sounds like it is mainly the SEC. I know for sure that it hasn't been a problem at any of the chapters I've supervised (Northeast region, primarily). If most of the northern chapters get 2 or 3 legacies going through recruitment, they are thrilled. While I can see some value in NPC having a round table discussion about the issue at those campuses, I would see it mainly as a brainstorming type session. Unless they did toss around the idea of legacy additions, the rest of it is ultimately up to each GLO to deal with. Does every GLO change their whole legacy policy because of a few chapters?

I think maybe educating the membership that some campuses have more legacies than quota would ease the hurt feelings at least.

[SoCalGirl]

I think "free legacy" quota would be an even better reason to blindly cut legacies of other chapters.

[EEKappa]

Originally Posted by AGDee

On how many campuses is this really an issue? It sounds like it is mainly the SEC. I know for sure that it hasn't been a problem at any of the chapters I've supervised (Northeast region, primarily). If most of the northern chapters get 2 or 3 legacies going through recruitment, they are thrilled.

Great point! The chapters that I hear of the "more legacies than quota" issue are in Texas, and no where else. As a regional alumnae officer, I'm cc:d on the chapter reports in my region (northeast) and legacies going through recruitment are rarely more than 8 or 10 per chapter.

Kappa's legacy definition is sisters, daughters, granddaughters and great granddaughters. "All other relatives are considered to have special ties to Kappa but are not recruited as a legacy."

[Zillini]

Originally Posted by EEKappa

Great point! The chapters that I hear of the "more legacies than quota" issue are in Texas, and no where else. As a regional alumnae officer, I'm cc:d on the chapter reports in my region (northeast) and legacies going through recruitment are rarely more than 8 or 10 per chapter.

I can't speak for any other sorority, but I know that the ADPi Chapter at Auburn University has this problem every year. I've heard they typically have about 1 1/2 x quota worth of legacies go through Recruitment. Alabama's ADPi legacies is increasing each year as well. I believe last year we had nearly 1/2 of quota, the most ever.

ADPi's legacy policy includes sisters, daughters, granddaughters and great-granddaughters. Being adopted doesn't matter. If a pnm was adopted into a family, she is part of that family and entitled to the legacy status.

Steps can be a little tricky. Our general policy is to consider them legacies but leave it up to the individual Chapters to make their own determination on a case by case basis. The vast majority of the time we consider them legacies, but every once in a while a unique situation pops up.

Here's an example I believe I've shared on GC before but it's worth repeating. A few years back we had an active whose father married a woman with a daughter in a whirlwind courtship the previous year. The active barely knew the woman or her daughter and she didn't like them at all.

The pnm step sister didn't tell the active step sister she was going through Recruitment. The pnm reported on her registration form that she was a legacy through the active and had alums write recs identifying her as such without the active's knowledge. The active came to me and asked that she not be considered a legacy. After getting approval from a higher up, we abided by the active's wishes.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by AGDee

On how many campuses is this really an issue? It sounds like it is mainly the SEC. I know for sure that it hasn't been a problem at any of the chapters I've supervised (Northeast region, primarily). If most of the northern chapters get 2 or 3 legacies going through recruitment, they are thrilled. While I can see some value in NPC having a round table discussion about the issue at those campuses, I would see it mainly as a brainstorming type session. Unless they did toss around the idea of legacy additions, the rest of it is ultimately up to each GLO to deal with. Does every GLO change their whole legacy policy because of a few chapters?

I think maybe educating the membership that some campuses have more legacies than quota would ease the hurt feelings at least.

Dee, that's exactly what I'm asking. Maybe those chapters/campuses need to change their individual policies or at the very least say that legacy status is so common there that it alone won't help a girl get a bid.

These legacy policies weren't as much of a problem when a great many women going to college dropped out of school after 1-2 years to marry - their spots opened up and there were plenty of women to fill them. Nowadays that's very rare. We're in the 00s and using policies from the 50s.

And I agree with SoCalGirl, a "free legacy" policy would make the cutting of legacies from their non-legacy group even worse.

[UGAalum94]

I don't think free legacies would be a particularly good policy, but why do you think it would make the cutting of other groups legacies worse?

(If your group wants her, they want her whether or not she's a legacy elsewhere; if they don't want her, what difference will it make to them that she can be "free" someplace else? I'm not trying to be a smarty pants; I'm just missing something. Are you thinking that all other groups would assume that she'll go the legacy chapter whether they really are her first choice or not?)

Personally, a GLO could have a form letter that included data from the high number of legacy chapter and the legacy policy that those chapters could send back to whoever sent the legacy form as soon as they received it. It could basically say in raw form:

We're delighted to learn of your legacy coming through recruitment, and we look forward to meeting her. We have not yet begun to evaluate potential new members, but we wanted to give you a clear understanding of the challenge that our chapter faces regarding legacies.

We understand the unique role they can play in the overall richness of life as an XYZ, but in the last few years, we've had 83, 102, and 78 legacies participate in recruitment while quota has been around 50. We will follow the XYZ legacy policy throughout our recruitment, but we wanted all members with legacies to be aware that it will be impossible for all of them to be placed in our new member class. Please encourage your legacy to keep an open mind about recruitment at our university; we have many excellent chapters for your legacy to join in should she not find a home in XYZ.

And a similar letter could be from campuses which have to cut a significant number of legacies a year.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

Personally, a GLO could have a form letter that included data from the high number of legacy chapter and the legacy policy that those chapters could send back to whoever sent the legacy form as soon as they received it. It could basically say in raw form:

We're delighted to learn of your legacy coming through recruitment, and we look forward to meeting her. We have not yet begun to evaluate potential new members, but we wanted to give you a clear understanding of the challenge that our chapter faces regarding legacies.

We understand the unique role they can play in the overall richness of life as an XYZ, but in the last few years, we've had 83, 102, and 78 legacies participate in recruitment while quota has been around 50. We will follow the XYZ legacy policy throughout our recruitment, but we wanted all members with legacies to be aware that it will be impossible for all of them to be placed in our new member class. Please encourage your legacy to keep an open mind about recruitment at our university; we have many excellent chapters for your legacy to join in should she not find a home in XYZ.

And a similar letter could be from campuses which have to cut a significant number of legacies a year.

Excellent!

[Buttonz]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

Personally, a GLO could have a form letter that included data from the high number of legacy chapter and the legacy policy that those chapters could send back to whoever sent the legacy form as soon as they received it. It could basically say in raw form:

We're delighted to learn of your legacy coming through recruitment, and we look forward to meeting her. We have not yet begun to evaluate potential new members, but we wanted to give you a clear understanding of the challenge that our chapter faces regarding legacies.

We understand the unique role they can play in the overall richness of life as an XYZ, but in the last few years, we've had 83, 102, and 78 legacies participate in recruitment while quota has been around 50. We will follow the XYZ legacy policy throughout our recruitment, but we wanted all members with legacies to be aware that it will be impossible for all of them to be placed in our new member class. Please encourage your legacy to keep an open mind about recruitment at our university; we have many excellent chapters for your legacy to join in should she not find a home in XYZ.

And a similar letter could be from campuses which have to cut a significant number of legacies a year.

I love the idea!

[33girl]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

I don't think free legacies would be a particularly good policy, but why do you think it would make the cutting of other groups legacies worse?

(If your group wants her, they want her whether or not she's a legacy elsewhere; if they don't want her, what difference will it make to them that she can be "free" someplace else? I'm not trying to be a smarty pants; I'm just missing something. Are you thinking that all other groups would assume that she'll go the legacy chapter whether they really are her first choice or not?)

I'm in superpopular chapter XYZ. New release figure methods tell me I have to cut 50% of the girls who have attended my first round party. I'll feel a lot less guilty cutting Linda the LML Legacy knowing LML can take her as a "free" pledge. Unless she's a movie star who's gorgeous with a 5.0, there's not a lot that's going to make me want to fight for her, especially when there are so many other fabulous women going thru rush.

[PGD-GRAD]

Some of you are kidding yourselves by thinking that elevating yourselves to chapter advisors local alumni chapter officers will make a difference when your daughter/other relative legacy goes through. If you are talking large Southern schools, it will not mean beans. You all know that some chapters have configured themselves as all "Old South", etc.

I can speak of a girl who had personal letters from BOTH the current president and former president of her mother's sorority. (And I am speaking of a huge national.) Her mother had actually helped found a chapter of her GLO at a local college and was currently main advisor. Add to that that the chapter at the school the girl was attending had a field rep. there to help them because that particular group had "ended up 3rd choice on too many girls 1,2,3 choices in final parties. The girl in questions had nearly 1400 SAT, tons of activities, was beautiful and articulate, had been a deb at a Junior League ball, etc. BUT---she was FROM TOO FAR NORTH!!

S0--ladies--if letters and calls from your own national don't guarantee an invite back to prefs., nothing else you can do will.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by PGD-GRAD

Some of you are kidding yourselves by thinking that elevating yourselves to chapter advisors local alumni chapter officers will make a difference when your daughter/other relative legacy goes through. If you are talking large Southern schools, it will not mean beans. You all know that some chapters have configured themselves as all "Old South", etc.

I can speak of a girl who had personal letters from BOTH the current president and former president of her mother's sorority. (And I am speaking of a huge national.) Her mother had actually helped found a chapter of her GLO at a local college and was currently main advisor. Add to that that the chapter at the school the girl was attending had a field rep. there to help them because that particular group had "ended up 3rd choice on too many girls 1,2,3 choices in final parties. The girl in questions had nearly 1400 SAT, tons of activities, was beautiful and articulate, had been a deb at a Junior League ball, etc. BUT---she was FROM TOO FAR NORTH!!

S0--ladies--if letters and calls from your own national don't guarantee an invite back to prefs., nothing else you can do will.

And that's the kind of stuff that I just think is jerky all the way around. Here's a girl who should be an outstanding potential new member, but the local chapter decides to have an attitude and say that she's not a good fit geographically? That's junk.

It's not that I think her mom's involvement should make the difference, but that the organization is probably not being as true to it's founding principles and ritual if they are rejecting well qualified members to take someone who "fits" with them on a hometown level. That's not the point. Even the groups founded in the south have chapters outside the region.

And conversely, if the national group has a problem with who the chapter is choosing, they should address it systematically, not just because on influential pnm got turned down. Yes, membership selection belongs to the active members of the chapter, but they shouldn't be allowed to subvert the values of the group for stupid reasons and tank the chapter overall. You should need to see one particular girl get turned down before you catch on that something weird is going on.

[bejazd]

Originally Posted by PGD-GRAD

Some of you are kidding yourselves by thinking that elevating yourselves to chapter advisors local alumni chapter officers will make a difference when your daughter/other relative legacy goes through. If you are talking large Southern schools, it will not mean beans. You all know that some chapters have configured themselves as all "Old South", etc.

And don't kid yourself that subjectivity is limited to big Southern schools. I'll go out on a limb and say that most don't know what a debutante is, don't care where you're from, what your parents do for a living, what your activities resume looks like or what your SAT score is. They care about how you present yourself and whether or not they think they want to spend the next four years hanging out, studying, sharing laughter, tears and a bathroom with you.

If you've got a legacy going thru recruitment the best advice you can give her is to be herself, try to make the best impression she possibly can, give every chapter serious consideration, and know that whatever happens you'll be so happy for her and supportive of whatever works out for her.

[adpiucf]

Originally Posted by PGD-GRAD

I can speak of a girl who had personal letters from BOTH the current president and former president of her mother's sorority [...] BUT---she was FROM TOO FAR NORTH!!

[...] S0--ladies--if letters and calls from your own national don't guarantee an invite back to prefs., nothing else you can do will.

So I take it you were in the room when this PNM was formally released and voted on? Because having been through membership selection myself, and having been through the process with a national officer overseeing our recruitment, having been through the process of dropping a legacy, I find it very hard to believe someone would be cut specifically because of her geographic position... especially when there was so much pressure to bid such a high-profile legacy during a recruitment with a national officer present. Not to mention the advisers. There had to be a lot of screaming, crying and pleading to release that little girl from that sorority's recruitment... and they had to have a damn good reason to do so.

I agree that no amount of volunteering or influential letter-writing can guarantee any PNM a place in a sorority. And at the end of the day, it is the chapter's choice. But releasing a legacy, especially one who is high-profile, is not an easy task and has to involve more than a dismissive wave of the hand.

Years ago, a chapter alumna of XYZ State University was actively involved on the local and international level for ADPi. Her two daughters rushed at separate schools. One rushed at the campus where her mother had local influence and joined ADPi. The second daughter rushed at mom's alma mater where mom had international influence and was dropped from ADPi before prefs. I know the girl; she wasn't a fit for this chapter. Mom was pissed and is no longer involved with ADPi.

That ADPi mom was involved enough to know our legacy policy. It's a shame. We lost a terrific alumna volunteer, but I think her non-ADPi daughter and the ADPi chapter in question were better off going their separate ways.

Being a legacy isn't enough of a reason to get a bid. It's going to be your chapter, not your legacy sister's.