Vick indicted in dog fighting case

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Talks about drowning the dogs, slamming their heads on the ground, choking them, shooting them, putting them in water and then electricuting them, etc. etc. It names witnesses, names of dogs, dogs that Vick purchased, how much money was being pooled...............personally I think the guy is screwed.

Regardless of how highly you rate the immoral nature of dog fighting (which is clearly a sick enterprise), this is by far worse in my mind - this is honestly just brutal. Killing dogs in such disparate fashion is horrific - part of me thinks it had to be done for enjoyment, with so many sick methods attempted. Just unreal.

Originally Posted by kstar

Does this mean her littermate was born aggressive? No, it means that they were more open to the training and treatment of their former owner.

So . . . it was born more open to the training? Or did the dog make a decision to be more open? Either way, you're kind of contradictory (either nature plays a huge role, or there are in fact 'bad' dogs) - not that it's at all relevant to the thread, it's clear Pit Bulls can be extremely good pets under the right circumstances. I'm not sure why you go beyond that, at all.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

So . . . it was born more open to the training? Or did the dog make a decision to be more open? Either way, you're kind of contradictory (either nature plays a huge role, or there are in fact 'bad' dogs) - not that it's at all relevant to the thread, it's clear Pit Bulls can be extremely good pets under the right circumstances. I'm not sure why you go beyond that, at all.

Dogs have different levels of intelligence, and learn what people will teach them at different rates. (I was trying to say that Tasha is d-u-m-b, dumb, dumber than dirt. But she is sweet.)

And it was in reference to what someone posted who implied that the dogs have to fight because they were originally bred for it, the nature arguement. I responded with an anecdote for the nurture arguement. Also, to highlight the horrific manner in which these dogs have been treated, so that people might understand some of their behavior.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by kstar

Ah, the nature versus nurture argument. While the breed's original purpose was to breed for gameness and pit fighting characteristics, they still need training to fight.

My pittie and her littermates were rescued from a fighting house. Tasha is the sweetest thing and is submissive to every dog she meets, while a littermate of hers had to be adopted out to a home with no other dogs because she will try to kill ANY other animal she sees that is smaller or near her size. It was heartbreaking because Tasha wasn't taking to her training, so her original owner was starving her to make her mean, while her more aggressive littermates were getting steaks. Didn't work. Does this mean her littermate was born aggressive? No, it means that they were more open to the training and treatment of their former owner.

There are no bad dogs, only bad owners.

I will have to find the original article but I am sure it is PubMed, but due to the inbreeding of pit bulls, they have a mutation in the testosterone locus, or possibly the receptor. Meaning the regulation of testosterone is unstable in male pitbulls. In female pitbulls, it probably is not a big deal until she gets past her breeding.

Yes, this aggressive behavior must take training. But how OLD ARE THEY?

Originally Posted by KSig RC

So . . . it was born more open to the training? Or did the dog make a decision to be more open? Either way, you're kind of contradictory (either nature plays a huge role, or there are in fact 'bad' dogs) - not that it's at all relevant to the thread, it's clear Pit Bulls can be extremely good pets under the right circumstances. I'm not sure why you go beyond that, at all.

The dogs are more easily to be trained for aggression. The research scientists do not know why this may occur. Learning is a part of the norepinephrine system and gross aggression is a part of the dopamine system in the brain. Is is possible that teststerone to the hippocampus and pituitary could affect these two systems that are maybe unstable.

Pitbulls could be sweet dogs, but when they age, all those processes may be activated if not taught control. Similar processes occurs in humans.

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Pitbulls could be sweet dogs, but when they age, all those processes may be activated if not taught control. Similar processes occurs in humans.

[hijack]
One thing I've always wondered about was how the children of serial killers end up. Are there any studies following up on them? If so, how have the majority of them turned out?

[/hijack]

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by honeychile

[hijack]
One thing I've always wondered about was how the children of serial killers end up. Are there any studies following up on them? If so, how have the majority of them turned out?

[/hijack]

No one has examined them because they usually kill themselves before authorities find them.

There were studies lonnnnggggg time ago on convicts. Because the doctors and others failed to get informed consent, then they caused human rights violations.

What I remember from reading some of those 1950's/1960's studies, was there were quite a few criminals that had the YY chromosome arrangement...

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

No one has examined them because they usually kill themselves before authorities find them.

There were studies lonnnnggggg time ago on convicts. Because the doctors and others failed to get informed consent, then they caused human rights violations.

What I remember from reading some of those 1950's/1960's studies, was there were quite a few criminals that had the YY chromosome arrangement...

I know about the YY chromosome, but I was more interested in people like Ted Bundy's daughter, or others like her. It would be an interesting study...

[UGAalum94]

I think there are studies about the children of criminals generally being more likely to go to prison, which makes sense because you'd get some combination of nature and nurture. But I don't think I've ever read about with serial killers.

For some reason, a couple of years ago, I read a lot of books about profilers. I think it was a combination of watching too much true crime TV and hearing a really interesting NPR report about some young teenage boys in Chicago being wrongly convicted (some even confessed to a crime they didn't commit), and what had put them in the suspect pool was a profile created based on the Central Park jogger. So I made the mistake of reading several books about some of the earliest FBI profilers and their big cases. (I don't think I slept for about three months because what I read scared me so bad.)

But the early profilers did conduct interviews with any serial killers that were still alive, and they did seem to find patterns in their lives and behaviors. And I think that if they noticed a pattern of similar behavior in their children, it would have been mentioned.

They did find that torturing animals as children was pretty much universal.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by honeychile

I know about the YY chromosome, but I was more interested in people like Ted Bundy's daughter, or others like her. It would be an interesting study...

I am usure is Ted Bundy had a defined disabiling psychosis transmitted genetically, i.e. Parkinson's or Schizophrenia. I think his psychosis was purely environmental--I think he was physically and sexually abused as a child. Most children that grow up that way, become deranged sexual predators that serial kill, unless caught at an early age and heavily treated. Something about the sexual abuse that makes them confused and angry with themselves causing maladaptations to function in "normal soceity"...

These kinds of things ARE NOT seen in the Animal Kingdom. Animals normally fight each other to the death due to way too much hormones flying around associated with maleness. NOT ALL animals, but a lot of them. The research focuses on sex--those males that have sex with everything on site vs. the pair bond. And in some cases, switching the neurohormonal regulation in the voles and rats, makes the lab animals prefer the same sex...

Pitbull males even if untrained will fight after 3-6 months of age. You just keep them separated.

What Vick did from my readings, is grossly atrocious. PETA should have his head on a platter rather than ours...