White men in NPHC

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

None taken.

See, academic interests are cool because we all have them. My research interests include the black community and the black church. But there's often (not always) a difference between when I study the black community versus a white person coming in to study the black community. There's historical and contemporary antagonism in that. It can make people feel like subjects who are being scrutinized and even used for something that doesn't fit a communal goal. That's how some black people feel when they vote whites into our organizations.

I can understand that, just that I would hope each candidate is voted on by each member on their individual merits, not by the color of their skin.

I was fortunate enough to take a class on African-American Psychology. Big eye-opener to me. When I talked about it to other friends they were like... "and how is that different from everyone else's psychology?" Got me really looking at how everything from psychological theories to every day assumptions are based on white males and studies using white male college students. (Although due to the number of females in psychology who are often required to participate in studies, that's changing a bit)

[Reds6]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I can understand that, just that I would hope each candidate is voted on by each member on their individual merits, not by the color of their skin.

I was fortunate enough to take a class on African-American Psychology. Big eye-opener to me. When I talked about it to other friends they were like... "and how is that different from everyone else's psychology?" Got me really looking at how everything from psychological theories to every day assumptions are based on white males and studies using white male college students. (Although due to the number of females in psychology who are often required to participate in studies, that's changing a bit)

I get judge by the color of my skin everyday and I deal with it. Again I'm 1 vote and if I met a White Delta, I wouldn't disrespect her. I don't get why non-whites want to join NPC organizations, but if that's their choice cool. But I don't get offend when those members also wonder why a person of color would want to join an organization that historically didn't want them. Nor would I get offended if a historically Jewish organization wondered why a Christian would join its ranks and would vote no. I just chalk it up to be attempting to maintain the integrity of the historically purpose of the organization.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Reds6

I get judge by the color of my skin everyday and I deal with it. Again I'm 1 vote and if I met a White Delta, I wouldn't disrespect her. I don't get why non-whites want to join NPC organizations, but if that's their choice cool. But I don't get offend when those members also wonder why a person of color would want to join an organization that historically didn't want them. Nor would I get offended if a historically Jewish organization wondered why a Christian would join its ranks and would vote no. I just chalk it up to be attempting to maintain the integrity of the historically purpose of the organization.

I just think that judging people based on the color of their skin is a behavior to terminate not to propogate. Also there's a difference with NPC groups in that no matter our historical founding we're pretty much open to everyone and Christians do join historically Jewish organizations every day.. ok well every Rush. THe important part is whether one can uphold the values of the organization. I do not deny we have racist members, but I wouldn't hold my tongue then either

[RedefinedDiva]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I just think that judging people based on the color of their skin is a behavior to terminate not to propogate. Also there's a difference with NPC groups in that no matter our historical founding we're pretty much open to everyone and Christians do join historically Jewish organizations every day.. ok well every Rush. THe important part is whether one can uphold the values of the organization. I do not deny we have racist members, but I wouldn't hold my tongue then either

With this statement, why is so hard to believe that NPHC orgs. can't be open to everyone?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by RedefinedDiva

With this statement, why is so hard to believe that NPHC orgs. can't be open to everyone?

I don't believe that, and that was never my point. Please read more carefully.

[RedefinedDiva]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I don't believe that, and that was never my point. Please read more carefully.

I think you should do the same. This conversation has gone on for far too long, all because you are worried about what WE do in our orgs. The young man asked about NPHC orgs. and members of the NPHC are the best ones to answer. We did.

In a nutshell: D9 orgs. accept members from all races. Some members of the NPHC on GC have stated that they wouldn't vote for a non-Black prospect. However, they do not represent the majority. Everyone is welcomed to try and should not be discouraged. Do your research and good luck.

[Reds6]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I just think that judging people based on the color of their skin is a behavior to terminate not to propogate. Also there's a difference with NPC groups in that no matter our historical founding we're pretty much open to everyone and Christians do join historically Jewish organizations every day.. ok well every Rush. THe important part is whether one can uphold the values of the organization. I do not deny we have racist members, but I wouldn't hold my tongue then either

I'm not disputing that Non-Jews join Historically founded Frats and Sororities, but I'm sure when they do it's questioned why.

But we can continue to go back and forth and my position won't change. Although my orgnaization does except white members, my question will still remain why does a white person want to join a historically black Sorority? I wouldn't vote no for a white person soley based on their skin color but on my doubt of the level of committment they have to my community.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by RedefinedDiva

I think you should do the same. This conversation has gone on for far too long, all because you are worried about what WE do in our orgs. The young man asked about NPHC orgs. and members of the NPHC are the best ones to answer. We did.

Yes, and I commented on something else entirely. I'm not particularly worried about how you run your organization. This conversation has not gone on longer than anything else and if you dislike it you are free to do so, I was, however, enjoying a dialogue.

In a nutshell: D9 orgs. accept members from all races.

I still don't think you've been following the conversation. This is quite understood.

Some members of the NPHC on GC have stated that they wouldn't vote for a non-Black prospect.

And this is what I commented on.

However, they do not represent the majority.

I've acknowleged this all along, and I commented because it is disheartening to see even in the indivdual and I find that sort of across the border bias offensive.

Everyone is welcomed to try and should not be discouraged. Do your research and good luck.

Also, understood and I'm sure interests appreciate the encouragement.

Originally Posted by Reds6

I'm not disputing that Non-Jews join Historically founded Frats and Sororities, but I'm sure when they do it's questioned why.

As I'm not in a Jewish organization I can't speak for them, but if they're much like the rest of the NPC there's not a lot of questioning going on along those lines.

But we can continue to go back and forth and my position won't change.

I never really expected you to change your position based on me, I simply wished to express my opinion on the matter.

Although my orgnaization does except white members, my question will still remain why does a white person want to join a historically black Sorority?I wouldn't vote no for a white person soley based on their skin color but on my doubt of the level of committment they have to my community.

The part that bothers me, is the assumption that their level of commitment will be lower than any acceptable black interest simply because of their skin color. That is what made me speak up, and that's still my opinion on the matter.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

The part that bothers me, is the assumption that their level of commitment will be lower than any acceptable black interest simply because of their skin color.

I do not think that many in the D9 have an assumption that an interest from a different ethnic group would have a lower commitment than an acceptable African American one.

I do think that without a historical balance or a true sense of what happens in the African American community, there will be a cultural disadvantage.

Just go to the Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc. greekchat board and see how we all are discussing what it is like growing up Black. Yes, relative to other cultures there are several similarities. At the same time, there are differences that one would not know unless they grew up in that culture. Is there anything wrong with that.

Now this young man who started this thread decided to grow up in a culture unlike his own family's. And now he wants to further become acculturated and indoctrinated in the pinnacle African American of culture. Think about the book entitled "Our Kind of People". And he has reservations about joining because he feels as if "toes" would be stepped on if he get accepted verses another candidate who "fits the profile". At least that is what I am interpreting from his comments.

I think most of us here of GC are in agreement that if he is about community service and appropriate representation of his organization of choice, then his ethnic heritage will not be an issue. Yes, he will get snarky comments or even sneers, that's the reality of it. There is no way we can protect ourselves from that ignorance. But just like interracial relationships, folks are going to have to get over it because it is happening. So what?

You know it is fine that you comment and you earnestly want to learn, but as you can see folks are getting defensive about your comments because they view it as invalidating their perspectives or belittling their experiences. Many a Black woman have told me publically and privately endure a constant barage of comments similar to yours that overtime begin to naw at one's soul until what is left is a hollow shell of a hopeless person. I think sociologists call it institutionalized racism, but you would have to as DSTChaos because that is her field of expertise.

So, when I explain that this is going on in the minds and souls of Black folks, the educated folks are more understanding, whereas, the hateful and heartless folks, well, now you know why some Black hate groups say the things they do. Is it right? No. But that is how stereotypes perpetuate.

What most in the D9 are saying here is that we are dispelling myths perpetuated by haters. We have to endure these hateful comments all the time. Long time ago, we never had to endure hateful comments from our own community. But, now, even our own community dislikes our existence but loves it when we have a party, step or give out scholarships.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

The part that bothers me, is the assumption that their level of commitment will be lower than any acceptable black interest simply because of their skin color. That is what made me speak up, and that's still my opinion on the matter.

You talk about "skin color" as if it were an objective concept, divorced from culture and experience.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

I do not think that many in the D9 have an assumption that an interest from a different ethnic group would have a lower commitment than an acceptable African American one.

I do think that without a historical balance or a true sense of what happens in the African American community, there will be a cultural disadvantage.

Just go to the Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc. greekchat board and see how we all are discussing what it is like growing up Black. Yes, relative to other cultures there are several similarities. At the same time, there are differences that one would not know unless they grew up in that culture. Is there anything wrong with that.

Now this young man who started this thread decided to grow up in a culture unlike his own family's. And now he wants to further become acculturated and indoctrinated in the pinnacle African American of culture. Think about the book entitled "Our Kind of People". And he has reservations about joining because he feels as if "toes" would be stepped on if he get accepted verses another candidate who "fits the profile". At least that is what I am interpreting from his comments.

I think most of us here of GC are in agreement that if he is about community service and appropriate representation of his organization of choice, then his ethnic heritage will not be an issue. Yes, he will get snarky comments or even sneers, that's the reality of it. There is no way we can protect ourselves from that ignorance. But just like interracial relationships, folks are going to have to get over it because it is happening. So what?

You know it is fine that you comment and you earnestly want to learn, but as you can see folks are getting defensive about your comments because they view it as invalidating their perspectives or belittling their experiences. Many a Black woman have told me publically and privately endure a constant barage of comments similar to yours that overtime begin to naw at one's soul until what is left is a hollow shell of a hopeless person. I think sociologists call it institutionalized racism, but you would have to as DSTChaos because that is her field of expertise.

So, when I explain that this is going on in the minds and souls of Black folks, the educated folks are more understanding, whereas, the hateful and heartless folks, well, now you know why some Black hate groups say the things they do. Is it right? No. But that is how stereotypes perpetuate.

What most in the D9 are saying here is that we are dispelling myths perpetuated by haters. We have to endure these hateful comments all the time. Long time ago, we never had to endure hateful comments from our own community. But, now, even our own community dislikes our existence but loves it when we have a party, step or give out scholarships.

I appreciate the long reply, I really do understand the bulk of this and am only commenting on one aspect that compelled me to speak up. I do not feel like I'm contributing to institutionalized racism with this discussion nor am I saying that a white person knows what its like to be black.

Yes, most of GC agrees on the matter. And I'll repeat, I don't think the D9 discriminates based on race as whole organizations. Individuals do. I spoke up because of that and because it is such a blanket statement it doesn't parse to me. (That and the blow off type comment of "That's just me." which to me implies that one knows it goes against their org.'s policy)

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

You talk about "skin color" as if it were an objective concept, divorced from culture and experience.

No, actually I'm objecting to one divorcing skin color from culture and experience. To make a comment based only on skin color and the assumption that a person is one way because of their skin color is ignoring that person's culture and experience. To say no white person is worthy without knowing the individual white person involved individually is ignoring that individual's culture and experience. Do I make sense?

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by Reds6

I'm not disputing that Non-Jews join Historically founded Frats and Sororities, but I'm sure when they do it's questioned why.

But we can continue to go back and forth and my position won't change. Although my orgnaization does except white members, my question will still remain why does a white person want to join a historically black Sorority? I wouldn't vote no for a white person soley based on their skin color but on my doubt of the level of committment they have to my community.

To be honest I think the same way. I was always really curious when I saw a black guy or girl rush NIC or NPC when the entire D9 plus several locals were on campus. In the end I found out that people would just go where they felt they belonged.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Drolefille:

So, when a non-African American member displays or vocalizes interest to us, there is that entire history that some of us read while our membership intake processes about the NPHC and its reasons for organizing. That is why we question intent. That is why some refuse to vote in favor of certain potential members.

I'm all for intent being questioned, but if a person can never satisfy you based on their skin color... I disagree with that.

And really, it may be foul and offensive, but so what if someone choses not to vote for a non-African American member in a privately held organization? In the United States, we have the freedom to associate with whom we choose just like everyone else.

Legally, sure. Ethically? Morally? I don't agree with it. Particularly when it goes against the values of the organization. I'm not saying recruit guys into a sorority, but when your organization says it welcomes women of all races and creeds (as mine does) you should follow that.

And even if you twisted it around and asked if an NPC organization chose not to select a Black girl simply because she was dark skinned, yes, there are groups that would cry "foul" and be upset by that if it ever got out.[

Would members of the D9 be upset that a little Black girl did not get admitted into a NPC organization because she was voted down based on her race? Personally, IMO, I would not be terribly upset by that, saddened, yes. But read to march on Washington. No, not me.

It's happened before when stories hit the news about people being dropped based on race. It gets coverage. People get upset. It's wrong whenever an otherwise wonderful candidate is dropped due to ignorance.

And I'm not marching on Washington either.

Let's just say we pick our civil rights battles carefully... I think my Sorors Rosa Parks and Corretta Scott King would have plenty to say if they were alive today...

And I've never compared this to a civil rights battle. It's not anything more than a discussion.

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

To be honest I think the same way. I was always really curious when I saw a black guy or girl rush NIC or NPC when the entire D9 plus several locals were on campus. In the end I found out that people would just go where they felt they belonged.

Interesting as this has not been my experience. However the NPHC groups were city wide chapters and didn't meet on our campus and just weren't very visible there. Campus culture difference I guess.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Legally, sure. Ethically? Morally? I don't agree with it. Particularly when it goes against the values of the organization. I'm not saying recruit guys into a sorority, but when your organization says it welcomes women of all races and creeds (as mine does) you should follow that.

you realize you're comparing personal prejudices to organizational protocol? who are you to tell someone what they should do regarding membership into THEIR organization?

[Reds6]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I'm all for intent being questioned, but if a person can never satisfy you based on their skin color... I disagree with that.

Legally, sure. Ethically? Morally? I don't agree with it. Particularly when it goes against the values of the organization. I'm not saying recruit guys into a sorority, but when your organization says it welcomes women of all races and creeds (as mine does) you should follow that.

You do realize we are talking about a Sorority membership? I'm not saying I would hire a black person over a white person. I'm not saying I would stop a white person from living in my neighborhood. I'm saying I don't understand why a white person would want to be part of a HBGLO. We promote issues that affect and uplift the black woman and our community amongst other issues. I can't turn to a White Soror and speak about my experience as a black woman and expect her to understand because she's been there not just empathize. I don't care about a person's skin color. But I do know I can't separate my skin color from my ethnic or culture experience or identity. I grew up in a predominately white neighborhood, so my choice to attend an HBCU and join a BGLO was like going home to me, you wouldn't understand that if yo haven't lived it. You can't understand my struggle or that of my people if you haven't lived it. I don't care about what color a person is, but because I know the history of many BGLO's and our purpose of founding, I prefer to share that experience with my sister's of color.