Is this legal? Deactivated one NPC, now part of a new NPC.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

How many do you mean by tons? Are you doing this after they are extended bids or before rush? How big are your new member classes?

Couldn't you call the chapters directly at the campuses where the girls came from? Honestly, how many transfers did you bid last year? How many came from schools with more than five NPC groups?

(Remember no NPCs are at two year schools.)

ETA: I realized this sounded really confrontation with all the questions. I didn't really mean it too. I'm just trying to understand what your actual experience has been. Even in a 50+ girl pledge class at UGA, there aren't probably even five sophomores or above in most groups; a good percentage of the sophomores may have been on the same campus the year before, and of the transfers, some probably came from schools with very few NPC groups. It doesn't seem like it would be hard to track down once you only had to track down the ones who you wanted to join your group, as opposed to screening everyone going through rush.

We haven't had "rush" since the mid-90s. Our NM classes are generally around 10 although up to 40 girls come to our recruitment events. Generally at least 5 transfers come through our recruitment and I think it would be absolutely absurd if I called Kappa at Lawrence or Phi Mu at LaCrosse and said "Hi, so and so is rushing my sorority, did she join your chapter?" I wouldn't give anybody who called our house and asked that the time of day. The girls in my chapter do not have the time to call every sorority at the other school the girl came from on top of classes and recruitment nor the time to email a list of those girls to the alumnae who are at least 60 miles away and busy with work or grad school. It's seriously absurd for you to think that this would work. This isn't like UGA or Bama where many alumnae are not working and have more free time for volunteering and alumnae panhellenic. This is essentially a tech school.

And yes, I do know that community colleges don't have NPCs. I also know that grass is green, the sky is blue, and I am sick of ladies who lunch assuming that every chapter is exactly like theirs.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by GeekyPenguin

We haven't had "rush" since the mid-90s. Our NM classes are generally around 10 although up to 40 girls come to our recruitment events. Generally at least 5 transfers come through our recruitment and I think it would be absolutely absurd if I called Kappa at Lawrence or Phi Mu at LaCrosse and said "Hi, so and so is rushing my sorority, did she join your chapter?" I wouldn't give anybody who called our house and asked that the time of day. The girls in my chapter do not have the time to call every sorority at the other school the girl came from on top of classes and recruitment nor the time to email a list of those girls to the alumnae who are at least 60 miles away and busy with work or grad school. It's seriously absurd for you to think that this would work. This isn't like UGA or Bama where many alumnae are not working and have more free time for volunteering and alumnae panhellenic. This is essentially a tech school.

And yes, I do know that community colleges don't have NPCs. I also know that grass is green, the sky is blue, and I am sick of ladies who lunch assuming that every chapter is exactly like theirs.

Nobody has had "rush" since the mid 90s, and I apologize for saying rush rather than recruitment. If you don't care enough to find out if people you initiate were members of a NPC group at their previous campuses, it hardly reflect poorly on people and groups who would make it a priority. If you are too busy to follow up on the few girls who you want to initiate who are transfers (which sounds like it would be far fewer than ten a year), and you wouldn’t help another chapter with similar information, then you get what you deserve.

You’re basically saying you don’t care about the pasts of the girls you are going to make sisters. You’re not in my group, so if you’re cool with that, it’s none of my business.

I will note that many of your observations about Greek life in the south are wildly inaccurate, but if you’d assume all that, you’re not worth the time to correct it.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

Nobody has had "rush" since the mid 90s, and I apologize for saying rush rather than recruitment. If you don't care enough to find out if people you initiate were members of a NPC group at their previous campuses, it hardly reflect poorly on people and groups who would make it a priority. If you are too busy to follow up on the few girls who you want to initiate who are transfers (which sounds like it would be far fewer than ten a year), and you wouldn’t help another chapter with similar information, then you get what you deserve.

You’re basically saying you don’t care about the pasts of the girls you are going to make sisters. You’re not in my group, so if you’re cool with that, it’s none of my business.

I will note that many of your observations about Greek life in the south are wildly inaccurate, but if you’d assume all that, you’re not worth the time to correct it.

I think you'd be surprised at just how much I know about rush in the south.

I would never give some random KD or Pi Phi information about my sister. How do I know they are who they say they are? I wouldn't want my sisters to tell you anything about me without my consent.

Sure, it could only be five girls a semester. But that's 5 girls x 5 NPCs at their previous campus...25 phone calls that may or may not even give me actual information...and keep in mind I would have to drive SEVEN HOURS to my chapter to find out who these girls are. You seem to think I have that free time, or that the girls in my chapter have the time to compile dossiers on new members. We don't. We don't put girls on kitchen duty. We are a small chapter.

The Excel spreadsheet I can get behind. That takes 5 minutes.

[AGDee]

I don't think the chances of getting caught are that low. It's a smaller world than most think. Someone who meets Susie at State U is going to know someone that Susie knew at U of State. Or, Susie is going to slip eventually.

The schools I'm used to working with often have transfer students. It seems like kids school hop these days.. from Michigan State to Michigan, from Central Michigan to Michigan State, on and on. A lot of people don't choose the right college for them from the start.

We can't get grades from a lot of schools in my area. Some of the schools in my area don't recognize the Greeks as student organizations. Trying to get contact phone numbers for all the chapters at a school like Eastern Michigan or Wayne Statewould be really hard, but people transfer from those two schools to other schools often.

I've been an Alpha Gam for 23 years now and have been involved on the local and regional level for 19 of those years and have never had a chapter have this happen.

Again, with the database thing, you still have to someone who can add all their members to an NPC database. That's a lot of entries in a year. And, all 26 NPCs would have to have at least one person authorized to add that data. Who would be authorized to look up that data? An advisor? A Collegian? Where would it be stored? How would they access it? How do you keep it secure? It just doesn't seem feasible to me.

We have other issues that are much more serious upon which we need to be focusing our very limited resources, in my opinion.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I don't think the chances of getting caught are that low. It's a smaller world than most think. Someone who meets Susie at State U is going to know someone that Susie knew at U of State. Or, Susie is going to slip eventually.

The schools I'm used to working with often have transfer students. It seems like kids school hop these days.. from Michigan State to Michigan, from Central Michigan to Michigan State, on and on. A lot of people don't choose the right college for them from the start.

We can't get grades from a lot of schools in my area. Some of the schools in my area don't recognize the Greeks as student organizations. Trying to get contact phone numbers for all the chapters at a school like Eastern Michigan or Wayne Statewould be really hard, but people transfer from those two schools to other schools often.

I've been an Alpha Gam for 23 years now and have been involved on the local and regional level for 19 of those years and have never had a chapter have this happen.

Again, with the database thing, you still have to someone who can add all their members to an NPC database. That's a lot of entries in a year. And, all 26 NPCs would have to have at least one person authorized to add that data. Who would be authorized to look up that data? An advisor? A Collegian? Where would it be stored? How would they access it? How do you keep it secure? It just doesn't seem feasible to me.

We have other issues that are much more serious upon which we need to be focusing our very limited resources, in my opinion.

It probably is a really different issue at campuses where a lot of non-freshman rush. What percentage of a new member class would you say are transfers where you are AGDee?

[AGDee]

I don't know for sure, because we don't even keep those statistics. We just have stats on class level in the reports that I get from chapters. I'm not even sure that the members know that when someone goes through recruitment whether they are a transfer or not. I would imagine it would come up eventually during their new member period. I can say that it's common for chapters to recruit sophomores and juniors up north here though. I also know that at 3 campuses in Michigan, I've been working very hard to get advisors to get GPAs from the advisors of other chapters on campus so that we can get scholarship ranks for our chapters. This finally happened at Wayne State this year, after at least 6 years of trying. Trying to get info about greek membership at other universities up here would be a real challenge.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I don't know for sure, because we don't even keep those statistics. We just have stats on class level in the reports that I get from chapters. I'm not even sure that the members know that when someone goes through recruitment whether they are a transfer or not. I would imagine it would come up eventually during their new member period. I can say that it's common for chapters to recruit sophomores and juniors up north here though. I also know that at 3 campuses in Michigan, I've been working very hard to get advisors to get GPAs from the advisors of other chapters on campus so that we can get scholarship ranks for our chapters. This finally happened at Wayne State this year, after at least 6 years of trying. Trying to get info about greek membership at other universities up here would be a real challenge.

It's interesting because some campuses publish the grade rankings on websites. (Yes, most that I've looked at are southern, but not all). Is it a difference in the university's attitude about student privacy, or is the greek culture itself that different, do you think? Can you speculate based on the campuses you know that do compile rankings and those that don't?

Again, I have no idea how big a problem joining an additional group is, but I think it'd be helpful if chapters knew how they could check. (Even when as you said, they hear from a friend at another campus, how would they verify the rumor?) Being able to say, "this is how we check" would seem like a deterrent to me.

[susan314]

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

It's interesting because some campuses publish the grade rankings on websites. (Yes, most that I've looked at are southern, but not all). Is it a difference in the university's attitude about student privacy, or is the greek culture itself that different, do you think? Can you speculate based on the campuses you know that do compile rankings and those that don't?

I know that at Michigan State, the chapters get a printout from the university showing the GPA of each individual chapter member. (At least, they did when I was there back in the 90s, and I'd assume they do the same now.)

Bowling Green State University also gives such a printout to the chapter (they even sent me one as the advisor), and they also compile a list of chapter averages so that you know where you rank.

Those are the only 2 schools here "up north" that I have firsthand knowledge of, so I can't comment on any others. Guess I just assumed that all universities provided the info.

[gphiangel624]

Originally Posted by susan314

I know that at Michigan State, the chapters get a printout from the university showing the GPA of each individual chapter member. (At least, they did when I was there back in the 90s, and I'd assume they do the same now.)

Those are the only 2 schools here "up north" that I have firsthand knowledge of, so I can't comment on any others. Guess I just assumed that all universities provided the info.

Many universities provide academic reports for their Greek orgs. Oftentimes they will provide a detailed report to a chapter officer (President or Academics chair) and sometimes to an advisor, and national if requested (some schools just send it). The chapter averages are typically public information because it is virtually impossible to determine individual member GPAs from an average.

Regarding the dual membership issue- it isn't an immediate solution, but this is the reason why it is crucial for all chapters and Panhellenics to require the signing of a Membership Recruitment Binding Acceptance Agreement (i.e. "Pref card") or a COB form and to have them on file with the Greek Life office. Even more important is the explanation of the purpose of the form to PNMs before and when they sign it. If you don't know what you're getting yourself into, it's difficult to be held responsible for a rule you weren't aware of.

[UGAalum94]

Edited: Sorry, I posted before I saw AGDee's note.


On an additional logistically note, if you did start the all NPC database, it wouldn't really have to be retroactive very far, which was an earlier concern. There'd be a substantial benefit even if one started with 2007 initiates and simply went forward. Within a few years, you'd have almost everyone likely to attempt it, unless there's a big issue with serial AIers which we've yet to discuss.