Politics 2008:The Caucuses and The Dem/Rep Conventions

[shinerbock]

That may be the least intelligent post I've read on this board.

Of my ilk...lets discuss shall we? This is coming from a supporter (assuming) of the party that tried incredibly hard to paint President Bush as an alcoholic and cocaine addict. From the same group who voted to go to war, and now calls the President an idiot for doing so. The same group who accused basically everyone in the GOP of conspiring with Mark Foley, while celebrating Gerry Stubbs. The same group that called the President a racist when Katrina relief didn't go as they'd hoped, though mostly ignoring the complete failure of the city's black mayor.

I'm sure everyone sees the correlation between Fox going after Obama's habits and his imminent assassination. Thankfully we have people like you who pay attention to legitimate news outlets like BET and report back to us regarding the brilliant insights they offer.

Welcome to politics, obviously the subject is new to you.

[MsFoxyLoxy77]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

This is coming from a supporter (assuming) of the party that tried incredibly hard to paint President Bush as an alcoholic and cocaine addict.

Spare me...Bush probably was drunk and a cocaine addict, but I could really care less...This coming from a supporter (not assuming just sure) of the party that tried to impeach Former President Clinton for having a sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky. Unlike a cocaine addiction, adultery (to my knowledge) does not impede one's capabilities of performing as President. In fact, if it did Jefferson, JFK, and a whole host of other presidents would have been out on there azzes.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

From the same group who voted to go to war, and now calls the President an idiot for doing so.

Yes, the Democrats voted to go to war because they were fed lies by the President and his sycophants in the CIA and in other parts of the government. An unfounded correlation was painted between 9/11 and Iraq; unfortunately, Democrats foolishly gave in to that idiot, and he is an idiot, under the threat of Weapons of Mass Destruction (as if we should be the only country allowed to have these weapons).

Originally Posted by shinerbock

The same group that called the President a racist when Katrina relief didn't go as they'd hoped, though mostly ignoring the complete failure of the city's black mayor.

Let's go to school (speaking slowly): FEMA is an acronym that stands for Federal Emergency Management Agency. I choose to place the majority of the blame where it's warranted.

I'm not sure that the President is a racist, though it wouldn't surprise me if he were. In fact, I would prefer it if he were racist because then I'd know that he isn't the incompetent President I believe him to be; that old women and children died after Hurricane Katrina's wake because he doesn't care about Black people and not because he didn't know what the hell to do or because he appointed the head of the Arabian Horse Association to manage national emergencies.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I'm sure everyone sees the correlation between Fox going after Obama's habits and his imminent assassination.

I'm sure you were the kid in kindergarten who couldn't color in the lines. I stated nor did I imply any correlation between Obama's habits and his imminent assassination. I also did not state nor imply that I was looking for news on BET...Did not I state that I glimpsed a 2006 recap in which individuals were making jokes?

If you have anything further to say (and I am sure you will) I will not respond. I have argued with a fool for long enough and pretty soon people will not be able to tell the difference.

[shinerbock]

You're already preempting by saying you won't respond? Given the complete lack of knowledge you possess regarding the subject matter, I would say that is a pretty wise decision.

1) The Coke- Obama has his own issues with this. I fail to see how the possibility of Bush using cocaine at some point in his life prior to him becoming President (or governor), impedes his ability to govern. Clinton was impeached because he broke the law.

2) Democrats were somehow used by the Bush administration...many liberals such as yourself use this, and it gets more hilarious each time. You're telling me people on the Senate Intelligence Comm were misled by the President? Even though they had the same access? Oh right, the CIA lied. I guess thats why most of the world came to the same conclusion, that Iraq had WMD. Even to this day, most rational people acknowledge that at some point WMD existed in Iraq. The intelligence lapse was losing track of what happened to them.

3) The simple fact that you're even trying to make fun of me is incredible. Yes, I'm well aware of what FEMA stands for. What you're obviously unaware of is how disaster relief works. Who responds first? THATS RIGHT! Its the local authorities and the state. Thats how it works, neat system huh? So yeah, when the Mayor doesn't order the evacuation until it is too late, thats a problem. FEMA obviously has problems, but then again we've never dealt with anything like that.

With that, good day.

[litAKAtor]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

3) The simple fact that you're even trying to make fun of me is incredible. Yes, I'm well aware of what FEMA stands for. What you're obviously unaware of is how disaster relief works. Who responds first? THATS RIGHT! Its the local authorities and the state. Thats how it works, neat system huh? So yeah, when the Mayor doesn't order the evacuation until it is too late, thats a problem. FEMA obviously has problems, but then again we've never dealt with anything like that.

Correction . . . The Federal authorities have dealt with a major catastrophic event like Katrina, i.e. Hurricane Andrew. THousands of people displaced and homeless and the response was immediate. With Katrina we are almost two years after the event, and you still have displaced people. The issue with Katrina was beyond one of race- it was a socioeconomic issue as well. It is easy to pass the buck re: the issues with who dropped the ball . .the mayor, the govenor, the fed. government. The bottom line is the reason the destruction occurred in NO had NOTHING to do with the Mayor's late mandatory evacuation. The destrucion in NO was because the levy's broke . .the levy's broke because the FEDERAL government refused to supply the Army Corp of Engineers the necessary resources to adequately build the levy's to withstand Cat. 3 storms, no less Cat 5! Moreover, Bush's seemingly SLOW response to the devestation in that area reeks of classism and racism - regardless of whether folks want to believe that. As the Chief Executive Officer of this country Bush had the authority to speed FEMA reaction time up - he had the authority to take necessary measure to ensure that AMERICA people weren't dying on the street and were treated with the dignity and respect they deserved. Bottom line he failed at doing his job - executing the laws to protect the citizens he is supposed to respresent. . . .any attempts to justify his behavior regarding Katrina or any other decision he has made in the 7 years he has ruined this country are incredulous.

At this point, any platform in '08 is better than the crap we've been dealing with since January '01!!

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by litAKAtor

Correction . . . The Federal authorities have dealt with a major catastrophic event like Katrina, i.e. Hurricane Andrew. THousands of people displaced and homeless and the response was immediate. With Katrina we are almost two years after the event, and you still have displaced people. The issue with Katrina was beyond one of race- it was a socioeconomic issue as well. It is easy to pass the buck re: the issues with who dropped the ball . .the mayor, the govenor, the fed. government. The bottom line is the reason the destruction occurred in NO had NOTHING to do with the Mayor's late mandatory evacuation. The destrucion in NO was because the levy's broke . .the levy's broke because the FEDERAL government refused to supply the Army Corp of Engineers the necessary resources to adequately build the levy's to withstand Cat. 3 storms, no less Cat 5! Moreover, Bush's seemingly SLOW response to the devestation in that area reeks of classism and racism - regardless of whether folks want to believe that. As the Chief Executive Officer of this country Bush had the authority to speed FEMA reaction time up - he had the authority to take necessary measure to ensure that AMERICA people weren't dying on the street and were treated with the dignity and respect they deserved. Bottom line he failed at doing his job - executing the laws to protect the citizens he is supposed to respresent. . . .any attempts to justify his behavior regarding Katrina or any other decision he has made in the 7 years he has ruined this country are incredulous.

At this point, any platform in '08 is better than the crap we've been dealing with since January '01!!

I disagree completely. First response is always local, and it should be. Of course federal response plays a role, but its up to the local and state governments to provide initial relief. You're right that Nagin had nothing to do with destruction, but it probably did have something to do with the loss of life. I think you had a good thing going for a minute, it was an absolute disaster. By disaster, I mean one caused by nature, not one that should be blamed on the President. It didn't reek of classism and racism. You know why it was different than Andrew? Because people in Andrew got out. They didn't stay in the area. They also had insurance. They didn't depend on the government to save them, and that idea served them well.

Could FEMA have done better in Katrina? I sure would like to think so. I'd like to think we could always do better. My problem is when people like yourself blame the federal government for the results of a national disaster. The government is not everyone's problem solver. At some point people have to take responsibility for themselves and for their families. You mentioned people dying on the streets, WHY WERE THEY STILL THERE? I absolutely agree that the federal government should help Americans, but it sickens me when people demand assistance instead of helping themselves.

I doubt you want to discuss the policy of the current administration with me, but if you do I'd be glad to. However, seeing as this isn't a forum for that, we should probably take it elsewhere.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by litAKAtor

The bottom line is the reason the destruction occurred in NO had NOTHING to do with the Mayor's late mandatory evacuation. The destrucion in NO was because the levy's broke . .the levy's broke because the FEDERAL government refused to supply the Army Corp of Engineers the necessary resources to adequately build the levy's to withstand Cat. 3 storms, no less Cat 5! Moreover, Bush's seemingly SLOW response to the devestation in that area reeks of classism and racism - regardless of whether folks want to believe that. As the Chief Executive Officer of this country Bush had the authority to speed FEMA reaction time up - he had the authority to take necessary measure to ensure that AMERICA people weren't dying on the street and were treated with the dignity and respect they deserved. Bottom line he failed at doing his job - executing the laws to protect the citizens he is supposed to respresent. . . .any attempts to justify his behavior regarding Katrina or any other decision he has made in the 7 years he has ruined this country are incredulous.

At this point, any platform in '08 is better than the crap we've been dealing with since January '01!!

Originally Posted by shinerbock

It didn't reek of classism and racism. You know why it was different than Andrew? Because people in Andrew got out. They didn't stay in the area. They also had insurance. They didn't depend on the government to save them, and that idea served them well.

Could FEMA have done better in Katrina? I sure would like to think so. I'd like to think we could always do better. My problem is when people like yourself blame the federal government for the results of a national disaster. The government is not everyone's problem solver. At some point people have to take responsibility for themselves and for their families. You mentioned people dying on the streets, WHY WERE THEY STILL THERE? I absolutely agree that the federal government should help Americans, but it sickens me when people demand assistance instead of helping themselves.

LitAKAtor and Shinerbock, you both make very good points on this issue, and I would be remiss if I didn't put my 2 cents in before we jump back to the '08 elections.

The way I see it, the federal government was without a doubt negligent by constructing poorly designed levees, especially considering Holland has far superior levees to withstand storms of that magnitude. Because of this, at least IMO, the government should've had a backup plan already in place in case circumstances such as Katrina ever occured. It was clearly evident that they did not, hence all the post-storm footage that bombarded our TV screens and streaming video files. As for the point that this negligence reeks of classism and racism, that matter debateable.

Shinerbock, I do agree with you in the sense that the lower classes and minorities need to stop relying on the government to save them every time they are in a jam (obviously my Libertarian beliefs talking here), I have to side with LitAKAtor in the sense that because the government contributed to this disaster by not taking pre-emptive measures with the levees, they should have proactive moved much more quickly by taking action and at least making an honest effort on saving lives.

By the same token(s), Nagin should have issued a mandatory evacuation much much sooner than he did, and the citizens should have at least made an effort to evacuate when the word first got out that a Level 5 hurricane was approaching.

So AFAIC, the blame can be evenly distributed among Bush, FEMA, the City of New Orleans government, and its citizens alike. I don't feel that Bush and FEMA are solely responsible for this disaster and the City of New Orleans is absolved from any sense of responsibility.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by litAKAtor

The bottom line is the reason the destruction occurred in NO had NOTHING to do with the Mayor's late mandatory evacuation. The destrucion in NO was because the levy's broke . .the levy's broke because the FEDERAL government refused to supply the Army Corp of Engineers the necessary resources to adequately build the levy's to withstand Cat. 3 storms, no less Cat 5! Moreover, Bush's seemingly SLOW response to the devestation in that area reeks of classism and racism - regardless of whether folks want to believe that. As the Chief Executive Officer of this country Bush had the authority to speed FEMA reaction time up - he had the authority to take necessary measure to ensure that AMERICA people weren't dying on the street and were treated with the dignity and respect they deserved. Bottom line he failed at doing his job - executing the laws to protect the citizens he is supposed to respresent. . . .any attempts to justify his behavior regarding Katrina or any other decision he has made in the 7 years he has ruined this country are incredulous.

At this point, any platform in '08 is better than the crap we've been dealing with since January '01!!

Originally Posted by shinerbock

It didn't reek of classism and racism. You know why it was different than Andrew? Because people in Andrew got out. They didn't stay in the area. They also had insurance. They didn't depend on the government to save them, and that idea served them well.

Could FEMA have done better in Katrina? I sure would like to think so. I'd like to think we could always do better. My problem is when people like yourself blame the federal government for the results of a national disaster. The government is not everyone's problem solver. At some point people have to take responsibility for themselves and for their families. You mentioned people dying on the streets, WHY WERE THEY STILL THERE? I absolutely agree that the federal government should help Americans, but it sickens me when people demand assistance instead of helping themselves.

LitAKAtor and Shinerbock, you both make very good points on this issue, and I would be remiss if I didn't put my 2 cents in before we jump back to the '08 elections.

The way I see it, the federal government was without a doubt negligent by constructing poorly designed levees, especially considering Holland has far superior levees to withstand storms of that magnitude. Because of this, at least IMO, the government should've had a backup plan already in place in case circumstances such as Katrina ever occured. It was clearly evident that they did not, hence all the post-storm footage that bombarded our TV screens and streaming video files. As for the point that this negligence reeks of classism and racism, that matter is highly debateable.

Shinerbock, I do agree with you in the sense that the lower classes and minorities need to stop relying on the government to save them every time they are in a jam (obviously my Libertarian beliefs talking here), I have to side with LitAKAtor in the sense that because the government contributed to this disaster by not taking pre-emptive measures with the levees, they should have proactively moved much more quickly by taking action and at least making an honest effort on saving lives.

By the same token(s), Nagin should have issued a mandatory evacuation much much sooner than he did, and more citizens should have at least made a diligent effort to evacuate when the word first got out that a Level 5 hurricane was approaching.

So AFAIC, the blame can be evenly distributed among Bush, FEMA, the City of New Orleans government, and its citizens alike. I don't feel that Bush and FEMA are solely responsible for this disaster and the City and citizens of New Orleans should be absolved from any sense of responsibility or accountability.

[shinerbock]

I agree. I don't at all mind the idea of using this disaster to better prepare for the next. I do have a problem when people think the government should shoulder much of the blame. I absolutely agree the government should have taken care of the levees and been better prepared for this type of situation. On the other hand, people living in NO should have known the risk posed by living in a city with such vulnerabilities. I think a lot more would get accomplished if people would begin to take more responsibility for their own lives and families. Rather than using problems with Katrina as a campaign issue and accusing the government of being run by bigots, working together to ensure that we're better prepared for the next one would be of much more value.

[litAKAtor]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I doubt you want to discuss the policy of the current administration with me, but if you do I'd be glad to. However, seeing as this isn't a forum for that, we should probably take it elsewhere.

Why would you doubt that? While I do not agree with 99% of Bush's policies because I believe they adversely affect "minorities" and poor people and favor those of the "majority" and the have's, I am always open to a healthy debate about issues . . and I totally disagree with you and KAP's perspective on Katrina (and for the record I am not absolving Nagin of total responsibilty - but local government relies on Fed agencies, particularly in the case of hurricanes - to predict the path of those storms. and Trust - I was in Andrew - I KNOW that everyone did not leave, I know that people were homeless and without food and electricty, however the economic situations of the people affected in Katrina and Andrew were different - but irrespective of that - the response from the Government SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE SAME!) - but that is the topic for another forum . . .

Sorry Mods.