What do people think about ethnic GLOs

Originally Posted by Taualumna

But you can't necessarily be open about them in "ethnic" GLOs either, unless it is very ethnic specific. Say ABC, an Asian GLO is predominantly Japanese. You are say, Korean. The Japanese members may or may not be open to your culture 100% of the time.

I'm sorry, I have to call BS on this.

Okay, I know that historically speaking, the Koreans hate the Japanese and vice versa, but I find it hard to believe that college-aged students of Japanese or Korean descent would even hold racial grudges like that. True, there are people who are very sensitive because of historical conflict, but I'm thinking those individuals (if they're even still alive) are my great-grandparents' age, NOT 18-22 year olds in college in American and Canadian GLOs.

Using your example as an example, I doubt that the Japanese members would go apeshit if Soon Yi Pak brought some bulgogi and bee bim bap to the sorority potluck just because their ethnic groups hated each other a century ago.

[SOPi_Jawbreaker]

Originally Posted by Taualumna

Oops.

But anyway, L.O.C.K., outside of NPHC groups, "ethnic" GLOs tend to be a post WWII thing. Many were founded in the last 20 years. Personally, I find it surprising that many Asians are joining these new organizations, because in my experience, Asians (especially Chinese) like tradition. A local girls' private school established in the early 90s is having trouble recruiting Asian students because the parents (as I mentioned in a much earlier post) are opting for century-old prep schools. I have an aunt who influenced my cousin (her son) to go to a 160 year old, very established school rather than a newer one, established in the 60s.

Do you think this is a form of rebellion?

I don't really know much about the whole Asian parents wanting tradition and rebelling against that (my parents sent me to public school ). But I did want to add another reason onto what L.O.C.K. had said (and you yourself even sort of referenced it by saying "They do make a committment to better the community as a whole, however"). A lot of the Asian Greeks I know (and I would imagine this would probably also apply to Latino/a and African-American GLO's) joined their orgs because it afforded them opportunities to become more involved in the Asian-American community on their campus and/or the Asian-American community in general. It's kinda like joining the Asian-American Students Association or the Chinese Students Association when there exists an Undergraduate Student Association. The Undergraduate Student Association, like NPC/NIC GLO's, may not be the right fit for someone who wants to be part of something that has a particular cultural focus and works on issues specific to that culture. I don't see ethnic GLO's becoming obsolete with more cross-cultural/multi-cultural interaction and mixing. Instead, I think the future holds more intermingling in orgs. Just like how there's more minorities in NPC/NIC orgs and how there's black students (of African-American and Carribean heritage) joining Latino/a GLO's, I think in the future there will be more non-Asian students joining Asian GLO's because they have an interest in the culture and in the political issues and because they feel a fit. And I think there will continue to be more minorities joining NPC/NIC orgs, and I don't think that will make any type of GLO obsolete because they offer different things.

[PrettyBoy]

Originally Posted by L.O.C.K.

The reason minority Greeks were created in the first place was because of racist laws that we're taken out until the 1960's by most organizations and still provide the backdrop for our current setting.

What do NIC/NPC orgs do *specifically* to benefit the Black/Latino/Asian communities? I don't see the organizations as a whole maintaining a committment to communities of color.

Studies have bee done on this. The results show that ethnicity is something one can't really be open about in many (not all) NPC/NIC chapters.

Every organization was founded on certain values/beliefs. You're not going to see minority Greek organization membership go down until you see increased racial integration across NIC/NPC orgs as a whole (which is a LONG way off) and true equality for all people in this country. That's the reality.

If those guys want to start a chapter of whatever fraternity it is, let them. Minority Greeks focus on specific communities. If NPC/NIC organizations aren't helping those communities, then don't complain when people join those organizations.

You make some great points, but even if predominantly WGLOs didn't exclude people of color, and some don't, I still wouldn't be interested in a predominantly white fraternity, simply because of some of the things that they do.

If BGLOs never existed then I would just be a GDI. I have no interest in predominantly WGLOs. I wouldn't even say it's a matter of fitting in, because I didn't fit into my organization from the start, at least at my school I didn't. I'm the total opposite of a lot of my fraternity brothers, and they tease about my personality all the time, but I feel comfortable around them and I can identify with them and I know I couldn't identify with guys in a predominantly WGLO.

[cutie_cat_4ever]

Originally Posted by OTW

I'm sorry, I have to call BS on this.

Okay, I know that historically speaking, the Koreans hate the Japanese and vice versa, but I find it hard to believe that college-aged students of Japanese or Korean descent would even hold racial grudges like that. True, there are people who are very sensitive because of historical conflict, but I'm thinking those individuals (if they're even still alive) are my great-grandparents' age, NOT 18-22 year olds in college in American and Canadian GLOs.

Using your example as an example, I doubt that the Japanese members would go apeshit if Soon Yi Pak brought some bulgogi and bee bim bap to the sorority potluck just because their ethnic groups hated each other a century ago.

This is just my experience hanging out with international students so don't grill me on this

It depends on whether the person is brought up in the states or not. For american borns, that generally doesn't happen, so you're right on that. HOWEVER, if they are international student, then it's a different story. In my school, I always see the Japanese and Korean students never get along well. It's a culture thing back in Asia that one group always tends to think they are "cooler" than the other. Especially most of the trends in east asia are either set by Japan or S. Korea nowadays. So it becomes more like a competition between these groups, and I've heard my Japanese friends talked about it. It's more like a pride thing going on. I think that's the kind of racial grudge that Tau is talking about.

But as I said, this generally doesn't apply to american borns.

[Taualumna]

Originally Posted by SOPi_Jawbreaker

I don't really know much about the whole Asian parents wanting tradition and rebelling against that (my parents sent me to public school ). But I did want to add another reason onto what L.O.C.K. had said (and you yourself even sort of referenced it by saying "They do make a committment to better the community as a whole, however"). A lot of the Asian Greeks I know (and I would imagine this would probably also apply to Latino/a and African-American GLO's) joined their orgs because it afforded them opportunities to become more involved in the Asian-American community on their campus and/or the Asian-American community in general. It's kinda like joining the Asian-American Students Association or the Chinese Students Association when there exists an Undergraduate Student Association. The Undergraduate Student Association, like NPC/NIC GLO's, may not be the right fit for someone who wants to be part of something that has a particular cultural focus and works on issues specific to that culture. I don't see ethnic GLO's becoming obsolete with more cross-cultural/multi-cultural interaction and mixing. Instead, I think the future holds more intermingling in orgs. Just like how there's more minorities in NPC/NIC orgs and how there's black students (of African-American and Carribean heritage) joining Latino/a GLO's, I think in the future there will be more non-Asian students joining Asian GLO's because they have an interest in the culture and in the political issues and because they feel a fit. And I think there will continue to be more minorities joining NPC/NIC orgs, and I don't think that will make any type of GLO obsolete because they offer different things.

But the Asian communities are so vast and diverse that it would be impossible to learn about them as a whole and help them. African-Americans have a common history and culture (though things are now changing, with immigrants from various African countries), Asians do not.

Originally Posted by cutie_cat_4ever

This is just my experience hanging out with international students so don't grill me on this

It depends on whether the person is brought up in the states or not. For american borns, that generally doesn't happen, so you're right on that. HOWEVER, if they are international student, then it's a different story. In my school, I always see the Japanese and Korean students never get along well. It's a culture thing back in Asia that one group always tends to think they are "cooler" than the other. Especially most of the trends in east asia are either set by Japan or S. Korea nowadays. So it becomes more like a competition between these groups, and I've heard my Japanese friends talked about it. It's more like a pride thing going on. I think that's the kind of racial grudge that Tau is talking about.

But as I said, this generally doesn't apply to american borns.

I should have specified that I was talking about American born students in a GLO - kind of sense. I am aware that competition exists within those groups, just not so much (if any) in Asian-interest fraternities and sororities.

Most of the international students I knew in college didn't bother joining Greek organizations because it was a totally foreign concept to them. Except for Dieke from Nigeria/Kenya/I can't remember what African country -- he went TKE.

[aurorablue]

America is a melting pot of cultures and ethnic groups today but we must not forget that it wasn't always that way. There was a time (not too long ago) when African Americans were not permitted to join White sororities and fraternities, so they started their own. Like it or not, the fact is that predominantly White fraternities and sororities are still in fact predominantly White whether they call themselves White sororities and fraternities or not. That's why I find it funny when they condemn ethnic GLO's. And I understand that they don't discriminate but neither do the rest of the orgs.

Another thing we have to remember is that America is not a reflection of the entire world. In Africa, Africans are dominant, in Asia, Asians are dominant, etc. So it's only natural for minorities to gravitate to those they share a common language, culture, race, and/or ethnicity with. It's the most natural thing in the world. It's like being away from home and missing it terribly. Taking pride in your heritage and wanting to uplift and support your community and cater to its special needs (especially since no one else is going to do it ) does not have to mean that you have anything against others. The fact is that "WE ARE DIFFERENT" and that's okay. We can celebrate our differences inclusively and exclusively, neither is wrong.

There is a BIG different between pride and prejudice and this is something that many people just do not understand...but you should try.

Peace.
Aurorablue, SGRho, Spr. 93

[Taualumna]

Originally Posted by OTW

I should have specified that I was talking about American born students in a GLO - kind of sense. I am aware that competition exists within those groups, just not so much (if any) in Asian-interest fraternities and sororities.

Most of the international students I knew in college didn't bother joining Greek organizations because it was a totally foreign concept to them. Except for Dieke from Nigeria/Kenya/I can't remember what African country -- he went TKE.

Dieke shoulda gone DKE.

[SOPi_Jawbreaker]

Originally Posted by Taualumna

But the Asian communities are so vast and diverse that it would be impossible to learn about them as a whole and help them. African-Americans have a common history and culture (though things are now changing, with immigrants from various African countries), Asians do not.

While the whole big category of "ASIAN" encompasses so many things that it would be impossible to learn everything about Asia and Asian culture, I do feel that being in an Asian GLO, there is a great deal of learning about each other's cultures. Plus, even if one doesn't learn the whole entirety of Asian-ness, one can still become educated about Asian-specific issues and get involved. For example, one of my sisters is really into activisim. For her last two years at Penn State, she petitioned and successfully got the administration to add an Asian-American studies class. Many of our other sisters as well as other students (Asian-American and non-Asian-American, Asian GLO members and unaffiliated students) helped her get signatures, line up faculty supporters, spread the word about Asian-American studies, etc.

For two years, the administration had rejected her petitions, saying that there was already Asian studies. Finally, she was able to get through to them that Asian-American studies is very different from Asian studies and to convince them of the importance of bringing Asian-American studies to Penn State.

I don't think that she would have gotten the same kind of support if she had been in a NPC GLO. Not saying that they would have been unsupportive, but it would have been something that most of them probably would not feel a personal connection to and would not be able to fully understand why it's so important and would not be able to have that same level of such passion for bringing this class to PSU.

FYI for those that don't know the difference: Asian studies deals with culture and history of countries in Asia. Asian-American studies deals with the mixed/blended culture of Asian-Americans, the struggles to assimilate, the history of discriminatory laws, and famous cases of anti-Asian violence in American history. Asian-American studies is a part of the history of the United States of America, just like how the history of discrimination and violence against African-Americans is a part of US history and needs to taught and remembered.

[Taualumna]

I don't think that she would have gotten the same kind of support if she had been in a NPC GLO. Not saying that they would have been unsupportive, but it would have been something that most of them probably would not feel a personal connection to and would not be able to fully understand why it's so important and would not be able to have that same level of such passion for bringing this class to PSU.

She didn't need to be in an Asian GLO to do that. She could have done that in an Asian club (unless all the Asian clubs at her school are very foreign student oriented).

Sorry, I'm more interested in Asian histories/cultures in Asia than Asian history in this part of the world....

[L.O.C.K.]

Taualumna,

Your comments are typical of many people, Greek or not, in the U.S. who have a very hard time comprehending Asian AMERICAN.

People love the "Asian cultures" as in the food, the kimonos, the Geisha girls, etc., but when it comes to the oppression that has faced many Asian Americans, things such as Executive Order 9066, The 1924 Immigration Act, the riots, etc., people don't pay attention.

THAT is why there is a need for Asian AMERICAN Greek organizations. Sure, we focus on Asian culture and things in ASIA, but our membership is primarily Asian AMERICAN, and most members have had a VERY different experience than people growing up overseas.

aurorablue and SOPi_Jawbreaker hit things right on the head, and made excellent points.

If you are "more interested in Asian histories/cultures in Asia than Asian history in this part of the world", then that's fine, but over here in the USA it is Asian AMERICAN history, so get it right please.

[Taualumna]

Originally Posted by L.O.C.K.

Taualumna,

Your comments are typical of many people, Greek or not, in the U.S. who have a very hard time comprehending Asian AMERICAN.

People love the "Asian cultures" as in the food, the kimonos, the Geisha girls, etc., but when it comes to the oppression that has faced many Asian Americans, things such as Executive Order 9066, The 1924 Immigration Act, the riots, etc., people don't pay attention.

THAT is why there is a need for Asian AMERICAN Greek organizations. Sure, we focus on Asian culture and things in ASIA, but our membership is primarily Asian AMERICAN, and most members have had a VERY different experience than people growing up overseas.

aurorablue and SOPi_Jawbreaker hit things right on the head, and made excellent points.

If you are "more interested in Asian histories/cultures in Asia than Asian history in this part of the world", then that's fine, but over here in the USA it is Asian AMERICAN history, so get it right please.

L.O.C.K. if you didn't already realize, I'm CBC (Canadian Born Chinese).--and you STILL haven't answered my comment about Chinese prefering "tradition."

Originally Posted by L.O.C.K.

Taualumna,

Your comments are typical of many people, Greek or not, in the U.S. who have a very hard time comprehending Asian AMERICAN.

People love the "Asian cultures" as in the food, the kimonos, the Geisha girls, etc., but when it comes to the oppression that has faced many Asian Americans, things such as Executive Order 9066, The 1924 Immigration Act, the riots, etc., people don't pay attention.

THAT is why there is a need for Asian AMERICAN Greek organizations. Sure, we focus on Asian culture and things in ASIA, but our membership is primarily Asian AMERICAN, and most members have had a VERY different experience than people growing up overseas.

aurorablue and SOPi_Jawbreaker hit things right on the head, and made excellent points.

If you are "more interested in Asian histories/cultures in Asia than Asian history in this part of the world", then that's fine, but over here in the USA it is Asian AMERICAN history, so get it right please.

Um, I don't think any of us here are surprised at all if taualumna has a hard time comprehending what it means to be Asian-American. She is Canadian, after all.

And I have to respectfully disagree with your Asian-American label for GLOs. IMO, Asian-interest seems more appropriate.

[L.O.C.K.]

In response to your question about people with Chinese roots...

...You can still enjoy/respect/practice tradition and join Asian American Greek organizations. I really don't see how they conflict. Sure, NPC/NIC orgs are almost always older, but that doesn't mean they fit the individual.

The reality is from 1926-1980 (I am not including Rho Psi because after its first few chapters it didn't really sustain collegiate membership and today isn't a fraternity any more), 12 organizations with APIA focus were created having 13 total chapters. From 1980 to the present date, over 50 organizations have been established, with over 415 chapters having been established. That's an INSANE growth rate. Yes, you can point to immigration...but then the question is, why are predominantly SECOND generation Asian American youth joining/STARTING these organizations? What is it about the system that they saw that they didn't like or felt didn't fit their needs?

Clearly, if they prefered the status quo, you wouldn't have this immense growth that is visible over the past 25 years (primarily over the last 15 though). You wouldn't have kids saying "I like the idea of the fraternal system, but it doesn't meet my needs as an Asian American or provide a place where Asian culture and values can be focused on" or some semblance there of.

The numbers don't lie. There is a need, and there will continue to be a need as long as a) NPC/NIC orgs maintain their cultural "neutrality" and b) as long as there are differences in the way people are treated/perceived based on their race/ethnicity.

Additionally, due to the high increase of the minority populations in this country, I think NPC/NIC organizations are going to take a serious hit(or maybe just become more codensed...who knows it's only a guess) if they don't stop the "we care about all cultures" crap that is preached but in reality is rarely followed through upon.

If NPC/NIC organizations, as National entities (NOT chapters because I know of chapters that are aware), don't educate their members about cultural issues and really develop cultural understanding, it's going to further the divisions. On the same note, if NPHC, NALFO, Asian Greeks don't do the same thing, it will ALSO increase divisions.

The reality is, that as historically white organizations who have memberships that are predominantly white, they have more social capital than minorities just by being white. The same goes for men over women, straight over gay, protestant over everything else, etc. We live in a country (like all countries) that has a power structure. The rules of the game and how the power is distributed favor straight W.A.S.P. men above anyone else. Therefore, because of this, organizations that don't cater to straight W.A.S.P. men are going to exist in order to help balance that power and provide opportunities for advancement where the society as a whole does not do it as well.

Sorry for the long winded reply. It's kind of theoretical, but I can explain further if anyone cares or wants me to.

[Taualumna]

LOCK, you haven't answered my question about how many Chinese people prefer tradition, have you? PM me if you want.