SMU student found dead at SAE House

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I completely agree. There may be some risk management lessons to learn here -- I certainly can't know because I only know a little of the story -- but right now is a time for grief and sympathy, not lectures, especially from those of us who are only semi-informed observers.

With respect, I (at least partially) disagree.

The name of this forum is Risk Management and it is set up to discuss "topics such as: Hazing, Alcohol Abuse/Awareness, Date Rape Awareness, Eating Disorcer Prevention, Liability, etc."

Condolences are absolutely appropriate, but not the stated mission of the forum. It is to discuss and, hopefully, learn from the problems facing other people and organizations so that others might not find themselves in the same situation(s).

Having been a division officer at a chapter where there was a suicide and having to talk to grieving parents, brothers and other students (Greek and non) at a memorial service on the campus; and having been recommended to be an investigator for issues such as this (I declined), I feel pretty strongly that there are lessons to be learned and that the way that happens is through an ongoing dialog.

Many of us expressed out condolences early in the thread, but I believe that it is important to discuss (and learn from) these situations as soon as possible.

[33girl]

It's a TEACHABLE MOMENT!!!










(and for anyone who doesn't know me well, I completely agree w/ Kevin and MysticCat that the lectures aren't needed at present time, especially over and over)

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by 33girl

It's a TEACHABLE MOMENT!!!










(and for anyone who doesn't know me well, I completely agree w/ Kevin and MysticCat that the lectures aren't needed at present time, especially over and over)

Exactly. A person has died. However, the moderators continue to give that person as much respect as a story. Are you serious? Lecture=person? A possible drug overdose has nothing to do with hazing or chapter problems or anything. How about next time a fraternity/sorority member goes missing we put that in here, because obviously it has something to do with the chapter.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

With respect, I (at least partially) disagree.

Having been a division officer at a chapter where there was a suicide and having to talk to grieving parents, brothers and other students (Greek and non) at a memorial service on the campus; and having been recommended to be an investigator for issues such as this (I declined), I feel pretty strongly that there are lessons to be learned and that the way that happens is through an ongoing dialog.

Well, I'll have to disagree, at least partially and also with respect.

Yes, this is a Risk Management - Hazing & etc. forum. (Maybe later someone can explain to me why a forum for people with college educations has "& Etc." in the title.) And yes, there are always lessons to be learned through ongoing dialog, regardless of the tragedy that gives rise to the dialogue.

But all parties have to be ready for the dialogue, which is often not the case immediately after an event such as this. And all parties have to understand what the dialogue is about -- is it about risk management or is it about personal responsibility when it comes to drugs and alcohol, or is it about both?

The purpose of this forum notwithstanding, I can understand completly why some close to the situation take offense when others with minimal knowledge of the facts offer what can come across as gratuitous, even patronizing, advice on risk management. (I'm not saying any advice or comments were intended to be patronizing, but I can see how they were received that way.) Meaningful dialogue requires that those participating in the dialogue all be adequately informed. Unlike the situation you describe of the suicide in the chapter in your division, no one here, except for Mac, is anywhere near "on the ground" with this situation.

That is why I think, with all respect, that the time for the time for risk management discussions must wait until everyone has all the facts. When all the facts are in hand, it just might turn out that Mac knows what he's been talking about and, despite the OP's placement of the thread in this forum, this tragic death is not really a risk management issue at all.

[macallan25]

Delt Alum, "respectfully" I strongly disagree with you. This thread shouldn't even be in this forum. For the 220394857 time......you don't know what happened....at all. You have continually posted in this thread like you do. There is absolutely no reason for you to keep making posts concerning Risk Management without any adequate information concerning what happened. You are trying to lecture people on a situation that you don't even know exists. I can make a 30 second phone call and find out far more than you have from a lengthy article. (I have, more than once, because I am good friends with many of those guys.)

For you to take this man's death, turn it around, and try to lecture us on RM policy, what is and isn't legal, what should happen to the chapter, and whether or not you think SAE is a good organization is extremely disrespectful and uncalled for. It is pretty much a slap in the face.

"Teachable Moment"?? Are you serious?

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Delt Alum, "respectfully" I strongly disagree with you. This thread shouldn't even be in this forum. For the 220394857 time......you don't know what happened....at all. You have continually posted in this thread like you do. There is absolutely no reason for you to keep making posts concerning Risk Management without any adequate information concerning what happened. You are trying to lecture people on a situation that you don't even know exists. I can make a 30 second phone call and find out far more than you have from a lengthy article. (I have, more than once, because I am good friends with many of those guys.)

For you to take this man's death, turn it around, and try to lecture us on RM policy, what is and isn't legal, what should happen to the chapter, and whether or not you think SAE is a good organization is extremely disrespectful and uncalled for. It is pretty much a slap in the face.

"Teachable Moment"?? Are you serious?

I was the one who started the thread. In hindsight, I should have put it in the Greek Life thread. If my putting it in Risk Management offends anyone at the SAE HQ or the members of the SMU chapter, I sincerely apologize. And just to be clear, there is no sarcasm at all in that statement.

Now, defending DeltAlum. His first post had a condolence message in it. He then went on to talk about a similar incident that he was aware of in his own fraternity and the consequences it involved. You seem to take issue with his phrase "in the house". If he was mistaken in this, why didn't you just point it out? Your own first post did not offer condolences to the chapter, but said: "Long night filled with lots of drinking and lots of blow. That's all you need to know." Please, calmly explain how saying that shows the respect for the dead young man, his family, and his chapter that you feel DA is not showing.

Instead, you came back with a statement that basically says that no matter what the SAE chapter at SMU does, your HQ would not close it. DA didn't argue with your statement at SAE. He just stated the facts in the Ohio State/Delta Tau Delta case and then agreed that he doesn't know the whole story about the what happened at SMU this weekend. After this is when you finally make the statement that the party was off campus. (And, hate to tell you, if it was a fraternity sponsered event and the under age member was there drinking, yes, the chapter can still be held responsible.)

Nowhere in his posts have I read him 'lecturing' anyone. He offered condolences, shared a similar situation that he was involved in and the consequences, made a couple of posts about responsibility, and basically been attacked. He deserves none of it.

If you have a problem with what someone posts and if it is 'appropriate' or not in this forum or thread, let Kevin know. He will take measures. If you don't feel like Kevin did the right thing, let John know. He is the ultimate ruler of GC.

And, I am truly sorry to have to add more of this bs to a thread that was genuinely started to inform people of a sad event at SAE SMU chapter.

[Elephant Walk]

I think he was referring more to Tom, not Delt.

It doesn't deserve to be in the Risk/Hazing section

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

I think he was referring more to Tom, not Delt.

Oh, my best guess is that he might have been talking about me.

That's OK. We don't agree on a number of things.

But here's the deal. Shortly after this forum was opened, I was the moderator (of this as well as Greek Life, Chit Chat and Delta Tau Delta) and John (the administrator) pretty much said to run it as I saw fit. I did that for quite a while.

Kevin is now the moderator, and I assume that John told him to run it as he sees fit as well.

Kevin is a good moderator and if he feels that something is in the wrong forum, he will move it where he thinks it belongs. I also think that if he feels I (or anyone else) am out of line, he will tell me/us -- or simply delete my/our posts.

This thread could have gone in either Greek Life or Risk Management -- but since it ended up in this one, I don't think it's out of line to explore the potential Risk Management issues involved.

Finally, when I say respectfully, I mean exactly that -- with respect. There's no reason I can think of to quote that word parenthetically.

Thanks LaneSig for the kind support.

[exlurker]

Update Wed. Dec. 20, 2006:

Several news sources in Texas are reporting that the medical examiner has determined the cause of Mr. Stiles' death was an overdose -- "a lethal combination of cocaine, ethynol and fentanyl," as one news piece put it:

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/myfox/pages/...Y&pageId=3.2.1

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

I was the one who started the thread. In hindsight, I should have put it in the Greek Life thread. If my putting it in Risk Management offends anyone at the SAE HQ or the members of the SMU chapter, I sincerely apologize. And just to be clear, there is no sarcasm at all in that statement.

Now, defending DeltAlum. His first post had a condolence message in it. He then went on to talk about a similar incident that he was aware of in his own fraternity and the consequences it involved. You seem to take issue with his phrase "in the house". If he was mistaken in this, why didn't you just point it out? Your own first post did not offer condolences to the chapter, but said: "Long night filled with lots of drinking and lots of blow. That's all you need to know." Please, calmly explain how saying that shows the respect for the dead young man, his family, and his chapter that you feel DA is not showing.

Instead, you came back with a statement that basically says that no matter what the SAE chapter at SMU does, your HQ would not close it. DA didn't argue with your statement at SAE. He just stated the facts in the Ohio State/Delta Tau Delta case and then agreed that he doesn't know the whole story about the what happened at SMU this weekend. After this is when you finally make the statement that the party was off campus. (And, hate to tell you, if it was a fraternity sponsered event and the under age member was there drinking, yes, the chapter can still be held responsible.)

Nowhere in his posts have I read him 'lecturing' anyone. He offered condolences, shared a similar situation that he was involved in and the consequences, made a couple of posts about responsibility, and basically been attacked. He deserves none of it.

If you have a problem with what someone posts and if it is 'appropriate' or not in this forum or thread, let Kevin know. He will take measures. If you don't feel like Kevin did the right thing, let John know. He is the ultimate ruler of GC.

And, I am truly sorry to have to add more of this bs to a thread that was genuinely started to inform people of a sad event at SAE SMU chapter.

I offered my condolences in my very next post after my first....but that is besides the point. I have talked to many of the guys in the chapter......actually talked to a couple of them about an hour after he was found dead. They were devastated....I felt it would mean more to here it from me personally.....rather than announce it over a message board......but I still wrote something. Please, don't ask me to explain what I have and haven't done. Pretty sure I have expressed my feelings to the right people. Sorry if my first post was brutally honest......but that is pretty much what happened. Also, I made no mention of them not closing SAE at SMU until Delt responded with his Ohio State story.

Again, I don't know if he was at the SAE party or not. I talked to a bunch of Phi Delts that saw him out elsewhere....so I don't know. However, I am pretty sure the third party vender would be held responsible for serving him alcohol.....not the chapter. If they took the correct Risk Management procedures (which I know they do because I have been to several of their parties) then they shouldn't be held liable at all. They always have wrist bands to get in, wrist bands to get alcohol, and ways to designate who is underage.......this is all done by hired Security.