SMU student found dead at SAE House

DeltAlum · #1 12-05-2006, 01:16 AM

Gentlemen,

If you run a liquor store and keep selling to minors -- you lose your license. If you run a bar and sell to minors, you lose your license. If you allow illegal drugs to be used in your home, you could go to jail.

In this case, an underaged young man allegedly used drugs and drank alcohol in the chapter house.

Those are both not only against the rules, they're against the law as well.

Saying that it's done all the time doesn't change either of those facts.

If someone breaks the law and you aid in that, you can be held responsible as well.

If you are responsible (personally or as a chapter), you can either be charged for breaking the law or be sued or lose your charter as a chapter.

Sorry. That is the way society works.

Sister Havana · #2 12-05-2006, 01:51 AM

Here's an article about him from the Naperville Sun (local paper). Very sad.

shinerbock · #3 12-05-2006, 02:13 AM

Delt, yeah, you kick the kid out. You don't shut down the house. Come in and do some sort of drug awareness pc bullcrap or something. I understand HQ's have to mitigate their liability on stuff like this, thats obviously part of the problem as well. My biggest problem with stuff like this, is that isolated incidents create change for everyone else. Granted, I'm not blaming this chapter or this kid at all, this is about a broader issue. Its the same thing with hazing. Plenty of chapters do it for decades without incident, but one chapter screwing up can ruin it for everyone else. Millions of college kids binge drink, but one who doesn't know his limits creates a ridiculous environment for everyone else. I guess I would have preferred greek life before HQ's became so involved, and to be fair to them, before litigation became a core principle of being an American.

macallan25 · #4 12-05-2006, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

Gentlemen,

If you run a liquor store and keep selling to minors -- you lose your license. If you run a bar and sell to minors, you lose your license. If you allow illegal drugs to be used in your home, you could go to jail.

In this case, an underaged young man allegedly used drugs and drank alcohol in the chapter house.

Those are both not only against the rules, they're against the law as well.

Saying that it's done all the time doesn't change either of those facts.

If someone breaks the law and you aid in that, you can be held responsible as well.

If you are responsible (personally or as a chapter), you can either be charged for breaking the law or be sued or lose your charter as a chapter.

Sorry. That is the way society works.

Delt, no one said anything about him doing either of those in the chapter house. Thanks. SAE had an off campus Christmas party Friday night.....so he may have been there for a while......although several of my friends said they saw him elsewhere at bars.

Tom Earp · #5 12-05-2006, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

Gentlemen,

If you run a liquor store and keep selling to minors -- you lose your license. If you run a bar and sell to minors, you lose your license. If you allow illegal drugs to be used in your home, you could go to jail.

In this case, an underaged young man allegedly used drugs and drank alcohol in the chapter house.

Those are both not only against the rules, they're against the law as well.

Saying that it's done all the time doesn't change either of those facts.

If someone breaks the law and you aid in that, you can be held responsible as well.

If you are responsible (personally or as a chapter), you can either be charged for breaking the law or be sued or lose your charter as a chapter.

Sorry. That is the way society works.

DeltAlum, how can you be so ignorant when it comes to Greek Life as proposed by so few others?

Don't you know anybetter than to argue with those in the know who know more than others?

For shame.

Oh well, with age comes some maturity.

Kevin · #6 12-05-2006, 04:55 PM

What I see here is one very tragic situation where a kid died. No matter what type of risk management policies you have, you can't watch every member all of the time. You can pretend that none of your members do drugs, but really, you're just fooling yourself. The stuff is out there, it happens, so be it. Just pray no one gets hurt.

My condolences to the SAE family. I don't think any kind of sanctimonious "follow your RM policy!' thing I could say could possibly help the situation. These kids have probably learned a very sobering lesson here.

boz130 · #7 12-05-2006, 07:45 PM

It's definitely still out there. During a Homecoming visit to a school a couple of months ago, I stopped by various chapters that I've produced newsletters & alumni communications materials for.

In two instances, I was welcomed by the familiar purple haze that was prevalent during my time in school 30 years ago. Brother Spicoli, howyadoin?

boz130 · #8 12-05-2006, 07:47 PM

Having worked with various SAE chapters, I'd also like to offer my condolences to the men of SMU and to the family of the brother who's passed away. His home's not far from my cousin's house in Naperville, IL.

Interfraternally,
Bill F.

MysticCat · #9 12-07-2006, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

What I see here is one very tragic situation where a kid died. No matter what type of risk management policies you have, you can't watch every member all of the time. . . . I don't think any kind of sanctimonious "follow your RM policy!' thing I could say could possibly help the situation. These kids have probably learned a very sobering lesson here.

I completely agree. There may be some risk management lessons to learn here -- I certainly can't know because I only know a little of the story -- but right now is a time for grief and sympathy, not lectures, especially from those of us who are only semi-informed observers.

My condolences to Jon and Mac, to their SAE brothers, and to Stiles' family and friends.

DeltAlum · #10 12-07-2006, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I completely agree. There may be some risk management lessons to learn here -- I certainly can't know because I only know a little of the story -- but right now is a time for grief and sympathy, not lectures, especially from those of us who are only semi-informed observers.

With respect, I (at least partially) disagree.

The name of this forum is Risk Management and it is set up to discuss "topics such as: Hazing, Alcohol Abuse/Awareness, Date Rape Awareness, Eating Disorcer Prevention, Liability, etc."

Condolences are absolutely appropriate, but not the stated mission of the forum. It is to discuss and, hopefully, learn from the problems facing other people and organizations so that others might not find themselves in the same situation(s).

Having been a division officer at a chapter where there was a suicide and having to talk to grieving parents, brothers and other students (Greek and non) at a memorial service on the campus; and having been recommended to be an investigator for issues such as this (I declined), I feel pretty strongly that there are lessons to be learned and that the way that happens is through an ongoing dialog.

Many of us expressed out condolences early in the thread, but I believe that it is important to discuss (and learn from) these situations as soon as possible.

33girl · #11 12-07-2006, 12:56 PM

It's a TEACHABLE MOMENT!!!

(and for anyone who doesn't know me well, I completely agree w/ Kevin and MysticCat that the lectures aren't needed at present time, especially over and over)

Elephant Walk · #12 12-07-2006, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 33girl

It's a TEACHABLE MOMENT!!!

(and for anyone who doesn't know me well, I completely agree w/ Kevin and MysticCat that the lectures aren't needed at present time, especially over and over)

Exactly. A person has died. However, the moderators continue to give that person as much respect as a story. Are you serious? Lecture=person? A possible drug overdose has nothing to do with hazing or chapter problems or anything. How about next time a fraternity/sorority member goes missing we put that in here, because obviously it has something to do with the chapter.

MysticCat · #13 12-07-2006, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

With respect, I (at least partially) disagree.

Having been a division officer at a chapter where there was a suicide and having to talk to grieving parents, brothers and other students (Greek and non) at a memorial service on the campus; and having been recommended to be an investigator for issues such as this (I declined), I feel pretty strongly that there are lessons to be learned and that the way that happens is through an ongoing dialog.

Well, I'll have to disagree, at least partially and also with respect.

Yes, this is a Risk Management - Hazing & etc. forum. (Maybe later someone can explain to me why a forum for people with college educations has "& Etc." in the title.) And yes, there are always lessons to be learned through ongoing dialog, regardless of the tragedy that gives rise to the dialogue.

But all parties have to be ready for the dialogue, which is often not the case immediately after an event such as this. And all parties have to understand what the dialogue is about -- is it about risk management or is it about personal responsibility when it comes to drugs and alcohol, or is it about both?

The purpose of this forum notwithstanding, I can understand completly why some close to the situation take offense when others with minimal knowledge of the facts offer what can come across as gratuitous, even patronizing, advice on risk management. (I'm not saying any advice or comments were intended to be patronizing, but I can see how they were received that way.) Meaningful dialogue requires that those participating in the dialogue all be adequately informed. Unlike the situation you describe of the suicide in the chapter in your division, no one here, except for Mac, is anywhere near "on the ground" with this situation.

That is why I think, with all respect, that the time for the time for risk management discussions must wait until everyone has all the facts. When all the facts are in hand, it just might turn out that Mac knows what he's been talking about and, despite the OP's placement of the thread in this forum, this tragic death is not really a risk management issue at all.

macallan25 · #14 12-07-2006, 02:58 PM

Delt Alum, "respectfully" I strongly disagree with you. This thread shouldn't even be in this forum. For the 220394857 time......you don't know what happened....at all. You have continually posted in this thread like you do. There is absolutely no reason for you to keep making posts concerning Risk Management without any adequate information concerning what happened. You are trying to lecture people on a situation that you don't even know exists. I can make a 30 second phone call and find out far more than you have from a lengthy article. (I have, more than once, because I am good friends with many of those guys.)

For you to take this man's death, turn it around, and try to lecture us on RM policy, what is and isn't legal, what should happen to the chapter, and whether or not you think SAE is a good organization is extremely disrespectful and uncalled for. It is pretty much a slap in the face.

"Teachable Moment"?? Are you serious?

jon1856 · #15 12-05-2006, 10:37 PM

Nothing truly new in the news on this-seems that medical report will not be out for awhile.
Just this from several media sites:
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/n...ENT_S1.article

http://www.smudailycampus.com/media/...ailycampus.com

http://www.smudailycampus.com/media/...ailycampus.com