Nun excommunicated for allowing abortion to save the life of a mother

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

The thinking would probably be along the lines of God will provide.

And I don't buy it, not for a minute. I don't believe that most people really believe in their religion because if they did, they wouldn't do the things they do and continue to do them over and over again. People have gotten good at following rules, not following God. How many people do you know that are actually trying to walk the walk? Exactly.

[starang21]

some of these "priests" remind me of the pharisees.

[FSUZeta]

hows does the church resolve the fact that many Catholic couples use some form of birth control other than the "natural" method? is it a "don't ask, don't tell" situation?

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Yep. Although I argue that (from a religious perspective) they're giving God pretty low expectations seeing how it is possible to get pregnant on birth control, just not likely. But if it's God then he could make it happen if it was indeed, his will.

I agree. Just ask AGDee about that.

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

hows does the church resolve the fact that many Catholic couples use some form of birth control other than the "natural" method? is it a "don't ask, don't tell" situation?

I'm assuming so. And it is probably only considered a venal sin as well.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I guess I still don't see the difference. In an ectopic pregnancy, the intent is still to terminate the pregnancy. The end result is it saves the mother's life. In the case we are discussing currently, the intent was to terminate the pregnancy. The end result is to save the mother's life. How are these different in any way? In both cases, the fetus is not viable to term. In both cases, terminating the pregnancy will save the life of the mother. In both cases, the pregnancy is terminated surgically. I think the church has just found a way to keep people happy since ectopics happen fairly commonly. Wouldn't want to stand by and let thousands of women die every year because we can't kill a nonviable fetus to save the life of a mother.

I don't disagree with where you end up. But from the Catholic Church's perspective, as I understand it (and I'm not Catholic), there is a difference.

In the ectopic pregnancy, the understanding is that the intent is not to terminate the pregnancy; termination of the pregnancy is an unavoidable side effect, but it's not the reason for the procedure. The intent is to save the mother's life.

Like I say, I think this line of reasoning can lead to tragic results. But the principle of double effect itself can be a useful tool and has been a useful tool for centuries. The rub comes in specific applications.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

hows does the church resolve the fact that many Catholic couples use some form of birth control other than the "natural" method? is it a "don't ask, don't tell" situation?

American Catholics in particular pay less attention to the rule against birth control and the Church hasn't really resolved it. It's a sin, and they're supposed to confess and stop committing it, but they don't think it's a sin, or view it as an unavoidable one so they continue.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I wonder if the family would have had a basis for a wrongful death suit against the hospital if she had died without the procedure considering that she was too ill to be moved to another facility. She was only 11 weeks pregnant so she falls within the legal time frame for an abortion so withholding an abortion from a patient who has no option to leave a facility and needs the procedure to live may leave the facility open to liability.

Unsure, I think Catholic hospitals have religious exemptions to providing care that they find immoral which generally consists of abortions and fertility treatments, I can't really think of anything else. (Not 'pulling the plug' too I suppose.) Knowing that, the responsibility is probably on the patients. Maybe the ambulance but that could be hard to sell.

Also, I think in these situations abortion is legal through, well birth. There are very few late-term abortions ever done but this would qualify as necessary if she had been so much further along. (Not disagreeing with you, just thinking she could have been anywhere in such a dangerous pregnancy and gotten one.. just not at a Catholic hospital.)

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I don't disagree with where you end up. But from the Catholic Church's perspective, as I understand it (and I'm not Catholic), there is a difference.

In the ectopic pregnancy, the understanding is that the intent is not to terminate the pregnancy; termination of the pregnancy is an unavoidable side effect, but it's not the reason for the procedure. The intent is to save the mother's life.

Like I say, I think this line of reasoning can lead to tragic results. But the principle of double effect itself can be a useful tool and has been a useful tool for centuries. The rub comes in specific applications.

What he said.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I don't disagree with where you end up. But from the Catholic Church's perspective, as I understand it (and I'm not Catholic), there is a difference.

In the ectopic pregnancy, the understanding is that the intent is not to terminate the pregnancy; termination of the pregnancy is an unavoidable side effect, but it's not the reason for the procedure. The intent is to save the mother's life.

Like I say, I think this line of reasoning can lead to tragic results. But the principle of double effect itself can be a useful tool and has been a useful tool for centuries. The rub comes in specific applications.

Surgery for ectopic pregnancy is done to save the life of the mother ONLY when done for Ruptured ectopic pregnancy. This is a huge distinction because patients with ectopic pregnancy frequently come in with complaints such as bleeding and abdominal pain prior to having life threatening complications from the ectopic pregnancy. Would you have to wait until you had a life threatening complication before the surgery is okay? When the ectopic is identified, surgery or methotrexate therapy is done immediately to terminate the pregnancy because the pregnancy is not viable and has a high likelihood of killing the mother if not addressed. This is actually the most common presentation of ectopic pregnancy, which is quite similar to the situation in the OP.

[SydneyK]

I've really enjoyed reading this thread.

This is what gets me:

But the hospital felt it could proceed because of an exception — called Directive 47 in the U.S. Catholic Church's ethical guidelines for health care providers — that allows, in some circumstance, procedures that could kill the fetus to save the mother. Sister Margaret McBride, who was an administrator at the hospital as well as its liaison to the diocese, gave her approval.

I'm assuming that Directive 47 was authored by and for Catholics in order to provide a basis for Church-approved, medically-related decision-making. If Directive 47 allows for exceptions (specifically in cases involving abortion), and the excommunicated nun made her decision based on Directive 47, I'm failing to see how the Church could argue that Sister McBride was in the wrong. She was following guidelines set out by the Catholic Church.

[AOII Angel]

I wonder if the family would have had a basis for a wrongful death suit against the hospital if she had died without the procedure considering that she was too ill to be moved to another facility. She was only 11 weeks pregnant so she falls within the legal time frame for an abortion so withholding an abortion from a patient who has no option to leave a facility and needs the procedure to live may leave the facility open to liability.

[DrPhil]

People are inconsistent, hypocritical, and extremist.

As with every other religion, there are Christians who are irrational and use religion as an excuse to do a lot of crazy things.

[Beryana]

I just wanted add how amused I am by people thinking they understand Catholic Theology and Canon Law when most only know of Catholicism what they read in the papers. . . .

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Beryana

I just wanted add how amused I am by people thinking they understand Catholic Theology and Canon Law when most only know of Catholicism what they read in the papers. . . .

Originally Posted by Beryana

And I'm going to ask you to elaborate on your statement - other than what you have read in the newspapers.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by Beryana

I just wanted add how amused I am by people thinking they understand Catholic Theology and Canon Law when most only know of Catholicism what they read in the papers. . . .

Actually a interesting question. Of those who posted in this thread, how many actually are or were Roman Catholics?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Yeah I'm not sure how else we're supposed to learn things.

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Actually a interesting question. Of those who posted in this thread, how many actually are or were Roman Catholics?

Raised Roman Catholic, attended Catholic grade school, High School, and attended a Jesuit University. My Catholic cred is solid, yo. But most people here know that at least to some extent so I don't mind sharing.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Or studied Catholicism for some reason?

That would be a good question if we asked such questions when we discuss other denominations and religions on here. Moreover, if Beryana thinks he/she has something to contribute, he/she should do so without the "you all think you know, but you don't" tone.

This.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Yeah I'm not sure how else we're supposed to learn things.

Raised Roman Catholic, attended Catholic grade school, High School, and attended a Jesuit University. My Catholic cred is solid, yo. But most people here know that at least to some extent so I don't mind sharing.



This.

Hey,I agree. I could tell you had a catholic background, and I clearly stated my non-catholic background. I don't think it really matters, though. People get on GC discussing Islam on a regular basis, and last time I checked we don't have many Muslims on the board.