After Several Years: What Do You Think of the New Release Figures?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AnchorAlumna

Jenny and Suzie and Rachel all did have another chance. They (presumably) had recommendations from an alumna based on resumes and pictures they gave to the alum. That was the sororities' first look.

Presuming, of course, that they got their recs!

Heh, I refuse to add more hypotheticals to an already silly hypothetical.

[Splash]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

So only some people get should second chances? Why shouldn't those people who get cut after the first round w/o RFM get second chances? Why are the people who get cut with RFM more deserving than the ones who get cut without it?

They have to make some cuts, even if all the sororities cut the same number each day

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Sure, but they're rare. There would be more situations where a girl wouldn't get a bid at all. Which is preferable?

They're not always rare. It depends on a lot of things. Sometimes they could be nonexistant. Sometimes they could be more common. I don't have an opinion on which is preferable.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Happens to a lot of people. If most are happy, why is that considered something 'bad'?

Preferences exist in sorority recruitment. Just because you don't get your first choice doesn't mean it's not preferred. You seem to be saying preferences don't matter since they can be happy anyway.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Because you are focused on the rare individual instead of the community as a whole. The PNMs don't know why they're cut, so they don't know if they had a "chance" or not. This maximizes every PNM's options, leads to more PNMs getting bids and helps every chapter reach quota. It's not a perfect system, but what is?

Yes I am commenting on a particular part of this discussion, the PNMs who lose out. I really haven't said much at all about the whole community and that doesn't mean I'm not looking at it. I don't see how it matters whether the PNMs know or not, unless you're saying "they don't know so it doesn't matter if one of them gets screwed over". This maximizes many PNMs options but in some circustances which I have mentioned it takes an option away.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

It's not about changing the sorority's mind because odds are the sorority doesn't hate her, they just like X number of people better, and out of that X only Y will come to pref and then 1/2Y (or 1/3Y or whatever) will get bids. If Suzie wants to be in that number she's the same chance as everyone else (she can't control what chapters pre-make bid lists etc.). Being the applicant to something, whether a sorority, a job, or a school means that you're not the one in control of the system. If a job invites the top 3 candidates for interview, someone's always going to be number 4.

I doubt the sorority hates her. I understand what you're saying but a large part of recruitment is to level the playing field. Sororities can make lists prior to recruitment all they like just as PNMs have preferences, but the sororities should be open to the possibility that a PNM could change their mind about what they initially thought.

[Splash]

To clarify, I think there are shortcomings no matter what system is employed. I am simply mentioning one of these shortcomings (PNMs getting a bid to a chapter they would have been cut from early on due to RFM). It is not justified just because the worst case scenario of many PNMs going bidless is worse. It might be the reason that they decide to use RFM instead of not using them but Susie not getting her top choice when she would have still isn't good.

[Titchou]

You are correct, Splash, that it really isn't "mutual" selection. But it's as close as it can get without having free-for-alls. Neither method is perfect. And both end up with women having hurt feelings. But the bottom line with RFM is it corrects two things that were the main problems with the previous method: 1) groups holding on to women they knew they didn't want just to inflate numbers and 2) too many women being left with no bid. If you used the old method and allowed all women who maximized their options at pref to be placed, the bigger groups would get massive and the smaller ones would fold. This method prevents that and allows everyone who maximizes her options to get a bid. Isn't that better for all?

As far as I know, groups generally drop grade risks, those without recs (where they are required), rep problems, "no" recs, etc the first round. Then, if they need to release more women, they generally work from the bottom of the pack up. Most groups have some sort of ranking system - esp those that require recs. So, they release from there. These women would probably be released by the group at some point anyway. It's really the second round on where you make your impressions. The first round drops are perfunctory...necessitated normally by the rules of the individual organization and the numbers they can invite back. So if Suzie or whoemever doesn't masure up to standards to begin with, she isn't going to after one or two rounds of parties.

Women who meet the standards of any of the other groups will continue to be invited back...and will, if they maximize their options, get placed on most campuses....even Ole Miss and Auburn!

[ASTalumna06]

Splash, in this case, you have to choose the lesser of two "evils". Although the system isn't perfect...

I'd rather see a few PNMs who MIGHT have had a chance in a "top" chapter get bids to a different chapter (and most likely be happy with that), than have a bunch of PNMs with no bids who could have easily been running to an amazing group of sisters on bid day.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Splash, in this case, you have to choose the lesser of two "evils". Although the system isn't perfect...

I'd rather see a few PNMs who MIGHT have had a chance in a "top" chapter get bids to a different chapter (and most likely be happy with that), than have a bunch of PNMs with no bids who could have easily been running to an amazing group of sisters on bid day.

Exactly...unfortunately, she's unable to see that in the real world, we can't just worry about Suzie Q, and where her top preference might be even though she isn't the top preference of her favorite chapter. The greater interest of the entire system is more important in the long run. Even if Suzie "won" them over, she probably just skated in, and everyone wondered who she was on bid day.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Exactly...unfortunately, she's unable to see that in the real world, we can't just worry about Suzie Q, and where her top preference might be even though she isn't the top preference of her favorite chapter. The greater interest of the entire system is more important in the long run. Even if Suzie "won" them over, she probably just skated in, and everyone wondered who she was on bid day.

Well that and it's not that Suzie's going bidless, she's just not getting her OMG first choice.

[SWTXBelle]

And let's not forget - it's in every pnm's best interest to have as many CHOICES as possible - which means the more strong chapters on a campus, the better, and the more likely the largest number of pnms will find a home.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

The converse to letting these popular groups string along large groups of girls they are completely uninterested in is that to keep going back to "Top Chapter", they have to let go one of the chapters that may be actually willing to give them a bid. So when "Top Chapter" finally does release them, as is inevitable, they have fewer chapters to chose from in the pool that is actually interested in calling these women sisters.

Thank you. Yes. Exactly.

You can either get real, or you can stay in fantasy-land and lose out on being Greek at all. And as you said - even if the girl squeaks in, she'll probably spend 2/3 of her time as an active worrying about every move she makes and whether she is "measuring up."

As a side note, the old movie "Inside Daisy Clover" was on last night. It's the story of a tomboy who gets discovered by a movie studio who proceeds to change everything about her. Of course, then she's miserable. That just seemed rather pertinent to this discussion.

[violetpretty]

Splash is most certainly our hypothetical Suzie that got cut from a chapter she wanted after round 1 as evidenced by:

1. Knowing nothing about recruitment on the campus/chapter level
2. Her fixation on "Suzie"
and
3. The fact that her recruitment stories do not add up to a real chapter/campus.

I responded to Splash's posts explaining why her suggestions do more harm than good. I find it interesting that all she can come up with is, "but Suzie could have gotten another chance," and she doesn't even respond to what I've said to her.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Thank you. Yes. Exactly.

You can either get real, or you can stay in fantasy-land and lose out on being Greek at all. And as you said - even if the girl squeaks in, she'll probably spend 2/3 of her time as an active worrying about every move she makes and whether she is "measuring up."

As a side note, the old movie "Inside Daisy Clover" was on last night. It's the story of a tomboy who gets discovered by a movie studio who proceeds to change everything about her. Of course, then she's miserable. That just seemed rather pertinent to this discussion.

Right, and generally speaking, no girl can really keep this up.

They'll stay through the NM period and initiate even though they don't like playing "catch up" because they'll think "this is Top House and who in their right mind would depledge Top House?"

Anyone I have ever know in that sort of situation stuck it out maybe that first year, but terminated by next fall. Of course, by then it's too late to try again.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Splash is most certainly our hypothetical Suzie that got cut from a chapter she wanted after round 1 as evidenced by:

1. Knowing nothing about recruitment on the campus/chapter level
2. Her fixation on "Suzie"
and
3. The fact that her recruitment stories do not add up to a real chapter/campus.

I responded to Splash's posts explaining why her suggestions do more harm than good. I find it interesting that all she can come up with is, "but Suzie could have gotten another chance," and she doesn't even respond to what I've said to her.

QFOhSnap.

I believe it though. Unless she is a new member, I don't think any actual sorority member could be this clueless about RFM.

[agzg]

I am in favor of RFM and I am in favor of deferred recruitment.

[DTD Alum]

I hope I'm not lane swerving, but correct me if I'm wrong...I would assume that even for the most competitive sororities, somebody who is cut the first round is clearly not going to fit in. I knew girls in some very competitive sororities at a very competitive school who said there were PNMs even a couple rounds in that they were questioning. It seems to me that round one cuts (even though Panhellenic does dictate a certain number) are essentially, "this girl is very nice, but there is no way in Hades she would fit into our chapter." Not an agonizing decision, and not one that people really regret.

Therefore the problem with this "Suzie" hypothetical is that this is not the PNM that necessarily could have snuck by with another round (like the PNM who gets to Round 3 and gets cut before prefs)...this is a PNM that just did not even come close to fitting the bill. If she got "another chance" and was invited to another round, she STILL would not have a real shot at the chapter, but would have cut chapters that actually wanted her to make room for this fantasy chapter that was never going to happen anyways.

Please correct me if this is wrong, but this situation seems so clearly absurd that even a fraternity member can see why release figures are necessary.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DTD Alum

I hope I'm not lane swerving, but correct me if I'm wrong...I would assume that even for the most competitive sororities, somebody who is cut the first round is clearly not going to fit in. I knew girls in some very competitive sororities at a very competitive school who said there were PNMs even a couple rounds in that they were questioning. It seems to me that round one cuts (even though Panhellenic does dictate a certain number) are essentially, "this girl is very nice, but there is no way in Hades she would fit into our chapter." Not an agonizing decision, and not one that people really regret.

Therefore the problem with this "Suzie" hypothetical is that this is not the PNM that necessarily could have snuck by with another round (like the PNM who gets to Round 3 and gets cut before prefs)...this is a PNM that just did not even come close to fitting the bill. If she got "another chance" and was invited to another round, she STILL would not have a real shot at the chapter, but would have cut chapters that actually wanted her to make room for this fantasy chapter that was never going to happen anyways.

Please correct me if this is wrong, but this situation seems so clearly absurd that even a fraternity member can see why release figures are necessary.

Because the stronger chapters have to cut more than other chapters they're trying to cut into those who could have maybe made it to pref. But it's unlikely that hypothetical PNM would actually have gotten the bid. So you're close, these chapters just have to cut more because they always meet quota/total/etc.

Even a chapter that is recommended to cut no PNMs due to their size/numbers/whatever can cut those PNMs who are just an absolute No on the first round. I think someone on the first page of this thead provided an example.