A Tough Fall Ahead

[Firehouse]

With respect, I believe this is an excellent idea or I would not have suggested it. It's been done before, and successfully.
Certainly, if a man's parents are paying the bills and they object to him taking the job then he is not a candidate. Neither is any man a candidate who feels that this would "put his education on hold" as you say. On the other hand, it's not unusual for a man to take a semester off and work, or to take a lighter load and have a part time job.
As far as being considered "active" is concerned, this is a job taken by a fraternity Brother as a recruiter. Whether the chapter counts him as "active" at the moment is beside the point. He is in fact there, doing his job. It could be an alumnus just as easily as it could be an undergraduate.
On some campuses, a man is given the job of full-time summer rush chairman, with a car, a clothing allowance and a budget. This is his paid job for those months. He leads the chapter in rushing and assembling a pledge class, often moving them directly into the house before fall term begins. This is common fraternity practice at some big schools in Mississippi, Arkansas, Texas, Iowa, Missouri - I'm sure there are others.

In this case - Linfield - the individual has reached out for help with ideas. If they don't re-build their numbers the chapter will die. It sounds as if fraternity sizes are small, so they can become competitive again quickly.

The three responders are all sorority women, and I understand this solution may sound odd to you because sororities tend to have lots of rules and restrictions on rush, including fall formal rush, and a limitation on summer contact. I believe this idea will also work with a weak sorority chapter that wnats to improve, and I have suggested it before.

Yes, we're here to get an education, and a first class education offers many advantages. What also offers considerable advantages are the lifelong relationships with quality men we forge in college. Pike at Linfield is an old and distinguished chapter. I'd like to see them survive and prosper.

I'm surprised at your reactions to a creative and effective solution with an entrepreneurial flair. The right man, who sees advantages for himself in this endeavor, will make a success.

[33girl]

It's not so much the rush rules or the part time student issue, it's more the idea of any parent being OK with this. I'm quite familiar with the concept of taking a semester off to work, but that's usually to make money at a full-time adult job to pay for your education - not to be a rush chair.

Paying the guy who does summer rush is completely different. It's SUMMER. School is not in session. He's probably turned down far more lucrative summer jobs to do all this for the chapter and he should be paid in return.

You know I usually agree with you man, but I just can't get on board with this one.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

With respect, I believe this is an excellent idea or I would not have suggested it.

Your suggestion is ridiculous and goes against almost everything that Greekdom is about. ETA: I don't even care about parents' opinions and whether the parents are paying for it. Students shouldn't be taking time off in the interest of the GLO regardless of whether it is disguised as a job.

I'm accustomed to hearing about NPHCers staying in school longer so that they can "make new members," or become a member, "save a chapter," and enjoy "being out" as a collegiate. And I knew some IFCers when I was in college who stayed in school a little longer to stay involved as an active and "save the chapter." All of those people FAIL at life and those chapters FAIL their national headquarters with zero exceptions.

/this isn't a lane swerve because this is a Greekdom issue

[Firehouse]

My goodness. I certainly did not expect women to post in response to a Pike discussion, and I am surprised at the intensity of the responses (Dr Phil, I assume from your language that you are also female). But it's fine; if we didn't have passion for this stuff there wouldn't be any discussions at all and no website. Thank you for your responses; I enjoy the discussion.

With respect, I have a lot of experience with fraternities over a long time and I have seen this done successfully. It's not a bad thing that sorority women view their organizations differently than fraternity men. My focus is on ressurecting, saving or improving existing fraternity chapters. If you want a weak chapter to get better, someone must step forward and take command - it doesn't happen all by itself. That man must come from somewhere, either from outside (a transfer or a consultant from national), or from the inside. If the inside man is a full time college student, he has limited capacity to get the job done.

Dr Phil, I'm not certain we share the same concept of 'Greekdom' and I'm pretty sure I don't know what you mean by it. I do understand biology and the mechanics of fraternity competition. You made a pretty bold statement: "All of those people FAIL at life and those chapters FAIL their national headquarters with zero exceptions." That has not been my experience.

Linfield is a small school. If our chapter is to survive (National requires 25 members to sustain a chapter) then the members must take immediate action, be creative and find success to motivate the group. Chapters thrive on momentum and morale. Both can be generated by strong, bold leadership.

Fraternities do not operate on the same dynamic as sororities. Women do not fit well into the male model and vice versa.

[Senusret I]

I am a fraternity member and also find this to be a bad idea, HOWEVER,

Originally Posted by Firehouse

(National requires 25 members to sustain a chapter)

THAT right there is the real problem. I suspect it may have been part of the multi-faceted problem which was the colony at Howard.

I do not support national minimums that are above the minimum number that the college requires.

[Firehouse]

I respect your opinion, but I'm not sure what you mena by "the minimum number that the college requires." I know that the HBGLO chapters and the multi-culturals can have very low numbers, but I'm not aware that a university requires an IFC chapter to have a set number. Panhellenic sororities with low numbers usually just go out of business.

No. Regarding the failed colony at Howard, I'll offer my opinion but I am speaking only for myself. I was angry that we installed a colony at Howard and I predicted what would and did happen. My national fraternity was disrespectful of a campus cuture, and that you must not do if you want to prosper.

I live in Tallahassee. FAMU and FSU are less than one mile apart. I am very familiar with the Black campus culture, with the unique strengths and drawbacks of Black fraternities and sororities, and with the - lets call it the point of view - of a smaller HBCU living in the shadow of a very large state university.

What my fraternity tried to do was to create a culturally white fraternity with black men on a campus where that very act was considered to be an intrusion of the most disrespectful kind. The appeal that was made to the Pike candidates was pretty straightforward and had to do with encouraging achievement and especially with a fraternity experience that involved no hazing. I was told that our colony attracted many student body leaders. I understand that after the colony failed, those men were initiated into Pike at a nearby chapter (GWU?).

Here's what I believe:
1. You must respect the campus culture if you want to prosper. We were disrespectful of the established culture at Howard and were not wanted there.

2. I do not want a chapter of Pike that is culturally Black. I don't want to see men wearing my letters whacking each other with canes, branding each other, wearing dog collars and doing a number of other things in public. I appreciate and i respect the demonstrated strengths of Black fraternities, but I don't want a chapter with the downside.

3. No matter how outstanding the men were that started the Pike chapter, if they wanted to fit into the Howard campus culture they eventually would have become just another fraternity like all the others there. And, they probably would not have been successful because Pike is not a traditionally acepted HBGLO.

4. At one time, and not so long ago, Jewish men were not permitted to join 'Christian' fraternities and so they became ZBT or TEP or AEPi or some other Jewish fraternity member. But today, that discrimination is rare and Jewish men feel free to join whatever fraternity appeals to them. I think we're slowly moving that way where Black men are concerned as well. Black men now join culturally white fraternities in surprising large numbers because that's where they feel comfortable and that's where they feel they have the most friends. Other black men feel more comfortable in an HBGLO. Black fraternities are NOT simply smaller versions of white fraternities. There are - some would say profound - cultural differences, both as undergrads and as alumni.


So...that's what happened to us at Howard in my opinion. I was appalled when we went there, and I was embarrased when we failed. I knew it would happen, and I was especially saddened that some fine men were misled by adults who should have known better.

[Firehouse]

"Yes, the spin may not work, especially if you guys don't embrace it & believe in it- but find a way to put a positive spin on the situation and showcase what you have to offer. In this case, not having a house can be a huge perk to some people. Just a thought... :"

You may be right. That's what they may have to do. If everyone else has a house, it's awfully hard to be the odd man out. But, you've stated it well. They have to put a positive spin on the situation.

[dreamseeker]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

My goodness. I certainly did not expect women to post in response to a Pike discussion

oh shit. let me get off GC and get back in the kitchen where i belong before i get in trouble.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

I respect your opinion, but I'm not sure what you mena by "the minimum number that the college requires." I know that the HBGLO chapters and the multi-culturals can have very low numbers, but I'm not aware that a university requires an IFC chapter to have a set number. Panhellenic sororities with low numbers usually just go out of business.

No. Regarding the failed colony at Howard, I'll offer my opinion but I am speaking only for myself. I was angry that we installed a colony at Howard and I predicted what would and did happen. My national fraternity was disrespectful of a campus cuture, and that you must not do if you want to prosper.

I live in Tallahassee. FAMU and FSU are less than one mile apart. I am very familiar with the Black campus culture, with the unique strengths and drawbacks of Black fraternities and sororities, and with the - lets call it the point of view - of a smaller HBCU living in the shadow of a very large state university.

What my fraternity tried to do was to create a culturally white fraternity with black men on a campus where that very act was considered to be an intrusion of the most disrespectful kind. The appeal that was made to the Pike candidates was pretty straightforward and had to do with encouraging achievement and especially with a fraternity experience that involved no hazing. I was told that our colony attracted many student body leaders. I understand that after the colony failed, those men were initiated into Pike at a nearby chapter (GWU?).

Here's what I believe:
1. You must respect the campus culture if you want to prosper. We were disrespectful of the established culture at Howard and were not wanted there.

2. I do not want a chapter of Pike that is culturally Black. I don't want to see men wearing my letters whacking each other with canes, branding each other, wearing dog collars and doing a number of other things in public. I appreciate and i respect the demonstrated strengths of Black fraternities, but I don't want a chapter with the downside.

3. No matter how outstanding the men were that started the Pike chapter, if they wanted to fit into the Howard campus culture they eventually would have become just another fraternity like all the others there. And, they probably would not have been successful because Pike is not a traditionally acepted HBGLO.

4. At one time, and not so long ago, Jewish men were not permitted to join 'Christian' fraternities and so they became ZBT or TEP or AEPi or some other Jewish fraternity member. But today, that discrimination is rare and Jewish men feel free to join whatever fraternity appeals to them. I think we're slowly moving that way where Black men are concerned as well. Black men now join culturally white fraternities in surprising large numbers because that's where they feel comfortable and that's where they feel they have the most friends. Other black men feel more comfortable in an HBGLO. Black fraternities are NOT simply smaller versions of white fraternities. There are - some would say profound - cultural differences, both as undergrads and as alumni.


So...that's what happened to us at Howard in my opinion. I was appalled when we went there, and I was embarrased when we failed. I knew it would happen, and I was especially saddened that some fine men were misled by adults who should have known better.

Thank you, Senusret I, for ushering in another PiKA at Howard discussion.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

I respect your opinion, but I'm not sure what you mena by "the minimum number that the college requires." I know that the HBGLO chapters and the multi-culturals can have very low numbers, but I'm not aware that a university requires an IFC chapter to have a set number. Panhellenic sororities with low numbers usually just go out of business.

No. Regarding the failed colony at Howard, I'll offer my opinion but I am speaking only for myself. I was angry that we installed a colony at Howard and I predicted what would and did happen. My national fraternity was disrespectful of a campus cuture, and that you must not do if you want to prosper.

I live in Tallahassee. FAMU and FSU are less than one mile apart. I am very familiar with the Black campus culture, with the unique strengths and drawbacks of Black fraternities and sororities, and with the - lets call it the point of view - of a smaller HBCU living in the shadow of a very large state university.

What my fraternity tried to do was to create a culturally white fraternity with black men on a campus where that very act was considered to be an intrusion of the most disrespectful kind. The appeal that was made to the Pike candidates was pretty straightforward and had to do with encouraging achievement and especially with a fraternity experience that involved no hazing. I was told that our colony attracted many student body leaders. I understand that after the colony failed, those men were initiated into Pike at a nearby chapter (GWU?).

Here's what I believe:
1. You must respect the campus culture if you want to prosper. We were disrespectful of the established culture at Howard and were not wanted there.

2. I do not want a chapter of Pike that is culturally Black. I don't want to see men wearing my letters whacking each other with canes, branding each other, wearing dog collars and doing a number of other things in public. I appreciate and i respect the demonstrated strengths of Black fraternities, but I don't want a chapter with the downside.

3. No matter how outstanding the men were that started the Pike chapter, if they wanted to fit into the Howard campus culture they eventually would have become just another fraternity like all the others there. And, they probably would not have been successful because Pike is not a traditionally acepted HBGLO.

4. At one time, and not so long ago, Jewish men were not permitted to join 'Christian' fraternities and so they became ZBT or TEP or AEPi or some other Jewish fraternity member. But today, that discrimination is rare and Jewish men feel free to join whatever fraternity appeals to them. I think we're slowly moving that way where Black men are concerned as well. Black men now join culturally white fraternities in surprising large numbers because that's where they feel comfortable and that's where they feel they have the most friends. Other black men feel more comfortable in an HBGLO. Black fraternities are NOT simply smaller versions of white fraternities. There are - some would say profound - cultural differences, both as undergrads and as alumni.


So...that's what happened to us at Howard in my opinion. I was appalled when we went there, and I was embarrased when we failed. I knew it would happen, and I was especially saddened that some fine men were misled by adults who should have known better.

First of all, yikes.

Second of all, I am pretty sure most colleges and universities have a minimum number of students required before they will recognize a campus organization. That number for general organizations tends to be between 10-15.

Sometimes, in the Greek world, that number is either lower for GLOs or or is waived in the case of culturally-based GLOs.

In the case of Pike at Howard, the minimum number that your fraternity requires is WAY TOO HIGH. There is no all-male fraternity at Howard with numbers like that. From what I recall, Howard only requires ten people to recognize an organization.

That's all I was saying. Didn't expect you to respond to anything else but the numbers.

[Firehouse]

"That's all I was saying. Didn't expect you to respond to anything else but the numbers."

OK.
Our national fraternity has an average chapter size of 68; that's the highest of all NIC fraternities. That's our choice and I support it. Other fraternities also make a point of encouraging all their chapters to try to be the largest on campus, or one of the largest. In the IFC culture, it's very difficult to maintain continuity and strength with fewer than 25 members. There are IFC chapters at Ole Miss, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas, FSU and Auburn with 200+ members. There are also major schools where the strongest IFC chapters have far fewer. At the University of Virginia, for example, I don't know of any prestige fraternity chapter that has more than 50 members. It's a matter of the campus fraternity culture.

As you said (or, somebody said here today) the HBGLOs and the multi-culturals often have very small numbers. You know that their intake process is very different, as is the culture. They generally don't have big houses to maintain, and their competition doesn't have the numbers to overwhelm them. And it should never be discounted that the HBGLOs especially, see their identity and their role very differently than do members of the IFC chapters.

I wasn't really aware of this: ("...most colleges and universities have a minimum number of students required before they will recognize a campus organization. That number for general organizations tends to be between 10-15."). It makes sense.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

My goodness. I certainly did not expect women to post in response to a Pike discussion, and I am surprised at the intensity of the responses (Dr Phil, I assume from your language that you are also female). But it's fine; if we didn't have passion for this stuff there wouldn't be any discussions at all and no website. Thank you for your responses; I enjoy the discussion.

With respect, I have a lot of experience with fraternities over a long time and I have seen this done successfully. It's not a bad thing that sorority women view their organizations differently than fraternity men. My focus is on ressurecting, saving or improving existing fraternity chapters. If you want a weak chapter to get better, someone must step forward and take command - it doesn't happen all by itself. That man must come from somewhere, either from outside (a transfer or a consultant from national), or from the inside. If the inside man is a full time college student, he has limited capacity to get the job done.

Dr Phil, I'm not certain we share the same concept of 'Greekdom' and I'm pretty sure I don't know what you mean by it. I do understand biology and the mechanics of fraternity competition. You made a pretty bold statement: "All of those people FAIL at life and those chapters FAIL their national headquarters with zero exceptions." That has not been my experience.

Linfield is a small school. If our chapter is to survive (National requires 25 members to sustain a chapter) then the members must take immediate action, be creative and find success to motivate the group. Chapters thrive on momentum and morale. Both can be generated by strong, bold leadership.

Fraternities do not operate on the same dynamic as sororities. Women do not fit well into the male model and vice versa.

These are all opinions. I doubt you would attempt to hone in on the perceived emotion if we were not women typing. This is a Greekdom issue and not a gender issue or a fraternity-vs-sorority issue. Certainly you do not assume that you are typing to people who are unfamiliar with keeping chapters afloat or that what it takes is so different for fraternities and sororities across councils and conferences.

The interesting thing about posting such threads on a publically viewable PiKA forum is that anyone can read and respond to it. I notice that NPC and NIC sometimes discuss struggling colonies and chapters on Greekchat and there's a reason why the NPHC orgs tend not to.

Originally Posted by Senusret I

I am a fraternity member and also find this to be a bad idea....

Imagine that.

A chapter that is struggling to survive is always a difficult thing. That doesn't mean that every suggestion is a good one even if it worked for a chapter(s) in the past. Afterall, a brother could take off from school to "work for the fraternity" and the chapter could still lose its charter. That would be fail all around.