Dating and finances

[starang21]

who knew etiquette and manners were bad examples?

[BabyPiNK_FL]

This thread makes dating sound confusing! I was always raised that a man should pay. However, out of courtesy once we're officially dating then I always offer to chip in once in a while unless it is very clear that he is paying. The fews guys I have dated always wanted to pay if they could so I am used to it. It may be old-fashioned, but I like what I like. I like a true gentleman. But then again, I also don't need fine dining. I'd just as gladly split a salad and and ice cream at Chick-Fil-A or something.

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Were those guys around HERE??? (Here is Pittsburgh for those who don't know) If anything, I've found most of the guys around here that I dated even in the most casual of manners insist on paying for the first date and get borderline offended if I offer to pay for anything. I'm convinced that part of the reason this one guy I went out with didn't ask me out again is because I paid for the movie tickets - issue with parking and ticket sellout - I didn't do it to emasculate him, which it seems he felt I did.

Indeed, they were, but must not have been raised right. Of course, it could have been because I was so young and they thought I'd be naive enough to fall for it. Older men know better than to imply it.

Originally Posted by AGDee

But, if a man opens my door, I also always reach across and open his for him while he's walking back to his side. That's just thoughtfulness and consideration.

Of course! But with the lavalier opener, it's already open, so I'm sure to give a big Thank You! and pat the seat.

Originally Posted by starang21

who knew etiquette and manners were bad examples?

Very sad, very true. Heartbreaking, really.

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

This came up because the program I was on, the hosts wanted to 'redefine' dating and does it mean more than just who can spend what on the first dates.

Daemon, if you don't mind me asking, what kind of program is it?

Originally Posted by AGDee

But, if a man opens my door, I also always reach across and open his for him while he's walking back to his side. That's just thoughtfulness and consideration.

Yep. I do that too.

[Little32]

Originally Posted by BabyPiNK_FL

But then again, I also don't need fine dining. I'd just as gladly split a salad and and ice cream at Chick-Fil-A or something.

I guess several other folks have made this point too. You don't always have to do something extravagant on a date. There are plenty of fun things to do while dating that won't break (or even tap) the bank.

I agree with Pretty Boy too. I think that folks will find a way to do what they prefer when it comes to dating regardless of the economic situation. If a man prefers to always pay and he is dating a woman that wants to let him, then he will probably continue to pay even if it means going to Ruth Chris's twice a month instead of once a week (and I am certain that there will always men like this who will always be able to find women who love that). As long as it continues to work for them, they will make it work.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by starang21

who knew etiquette and manners were bad examples?

This isn't about etiquette and manners. This is about perpetuating gendered social norms.

If the topic was about people negotiating etiquette and manners based on personality type and choice, rather than gendered obligation, this wouldn't be an issue or even a topic of discussion. Instead the topic is "should men pay (open doors, etc.)."

Ever wonder what happens when women defy gender norms and want to pay for the first few dates, open doors for men (not just to reciprocate), etc? It often confuses things, often angers most men (you'll be surprised what men conclude about the women), and challenges traditional notions of masculinity and femininity. We don't have to think about this stuff and challenge this stuff all the time, but there's nothing wrong with using your brain instead of constantly relying on "how things have always been."

[starang21]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This isn't about etiquette and manners. This is about perpetuating gendered social norms.

If the topic was about people negotiating etiquette and manners based on personality type and choice, rather than gendered obligation, this wouldn't be an issue or even a topic of discussion. Instead the topic is "should men pay (open doors, etc.)."

Ever wonder what happens when women defy gender norms and want to pay for the first few dates, open doors for men (not just to reciprocate), etc? It often confuses things, often angers most men (you'll be surprised what men conclude about the women), and challenges traditional notions of masculinity and femininity. We don't have to think about this stuff and challenge this stuff all the time, but there's nothing wrong with using your brain instead of constantly relying on "how things have always been."

it's supposed to challenge tradition notions because it goes against traditional etiquette and manners. etiquette and manners are learned. who do they learn it from? society. is it wrong for society to teach etiquette and manners?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by starang21

it's supposed to challenge tradition notions because it goes against traditional etiquette and manners. etiquette and manners are learned. who do they learn it from? society. is it wrong for society to teach etiquette and manners?

What DrPhil is trying to say is the same things should apply for everyone. I'm sure there are still women out there who will literally stand next to a car and wait for the guy to open the door, even if he's carrying a small child, a case of beer and his golf clubs. That's dumb. Her point (well, part of it) is that there are people out there who substitute etiquette and "manners" for common sense.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by 33girl

What DrPhil is trying to say is the same things should apply for everyone. I'm sure there are still women out there who will literally stand next to a car and wait for the guy to open the door, even if he's carrying a small child, a case of beer and his golf clubs. That's dumb. Her point (well, part of it) is that there are people out there who substitute etiquette and "manners" for common sense.

a woman shouldn't be opening doors for a man, nor should a woman be carrying the majority of the bags. of course there should be common sense and moderation, but to say that everything a man is supposed to do, a woman is as well is silly. gender roles or duties exist. it's life.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by starang21

a woman shouldn't be opening doors for a man, nor should a woman be carrying the majority of the bags. of course there should be common sense and moderation, but to say that everything a man is supposed to do, a woman is as well is silly. gender roles or duties exist. it's life.

Your post doesn't make sense. I said if a man is carrying tons of bags (because he's probably stronger than the woman, which is a biological thing), it's asinine for the woman to stand there like a lump and wait for him to open the door FOR HER. Unless it's a 250 pound door.

Dee - one of the things that used to drive me crackers was in the elevator, how men would stand to the side to let women out. Problem was, sometimes they ended up squishing you into the side and/or making you walk awkwardly around them. Seriously dumbass, just GET OUT OF THE FREAKING VATOR.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Your post doesn't make sense. I said if a man is carrying tons of bags (because he's probably stronger than the woman, which is a biological thing), it's asinine for the woman to stand there like a lump and wait for him to open the door FOR HER. Unless it's a 250 pound door.

Dee - one of the things that used to drive me crackers was in the elevator, how men would stand to the side to let women out. Problem was, sometimes they ended up squishing you into the side and/or making you walk awkwardly around them. Seriously dumbass, just GET OUT OF THE FREAKING VATOR.

Our elevators at work close REALLY fast so when people do that kind of stuff, the doors will close and nobody got to get out. It's so silly. I think men do it to make us brush up against them, honestly!

[starang21]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Your post doesn't make sense. I said if a man is carrying tons of bags (because he's probably stronger than the woman, which is a biological thing), it's asinine for the woman to stand there like a lump and wait for him to open the door FOR HER. Unless it's a 250 pound door.

how does it not make sense? i said

a woman shouldn't be opening doors for a man, nor should a woman be carrying the majority of the bags. of course there should be common sense and moderation

your statement falls under "common sense and moderation." what is hard to understand about that?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by starang21

gender roles or duties exist. it's life.

Bullshit.

As your friend, I am not shocked that you feel this way and this is why you and I discuss race but rarely discuss gender.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Bullshit.

As your friend, I am not shocked that you feel this way and this is why you and I discuss race but rarely discuss gender.

you never bring it up.

and gender roles do exist. whether or not you believe in them, enough people do to make it reality.

trying to challenge gender roles is all fine and well, but don't get mad when you're stuck with all the bags and your man is carrying a purse.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by 33girl

What DrPhil is trying to say is the same things should apply for everyone. I'm sure there are still women out there who will literally stand next to a car and wait for the guy to open the door, even if he's carrying a small child, a case of beer and his golf clubs. That's dumb. Her point (well, part of it) is that there are people out there who substitute etiquette and "manners" for common sense.

Exactly. And they see it as blasphemy to do anything that isn't "traditional," even if there are more logical alternatives.

I don't know what the hell starang21 is talking about. LOL. He made my head hurt.