The Term African American

[Sista]

Originally Posted by Ch2tf

I wasn't precluding that race is a "science" and I'm well aware that it is a sociological construction..

Sociological construction, please break down what that means to you? I would like to make sure that I am comprehending at the same perception, frame of mind as you? I just want to be sure of what that means to you, sociological construction?

Originally Posted by Ch2tf

I used the term race because it was the term floating around in the thread. So to clarify, according the special, Henry Louis Gates Jr., a well known author and Harvard University professor, compared the DNA a group of well know celebrities against the DNA of a subsection of the WORLD'S population (the basis of the comparison is that currently there is a "file" of the DNA of the world's people that has been compiled since the advent of genetics/DNA testing). The DNA, or rather the portion of a person's DNA that has been shown to related to ethnicity/heritage was compared to the "samples" that were currently housed and given the volunteers as a possible window of their culturo-historical roots.

Am I to get from this that Whoopi had a higher percentage of European decent as oppose to African decent? Because when I saw the show, it said nothing about percentages, only decent.

I am going to have to ask you for the source for which genetic testing center did Henry Louis gates use because I have researched many DNA testing centers and none of them have the worlds population of DNA on file let alone a subsection. It is not an easy thing to approach foreign people and ask them for their blood, so you can store it in your bank.

Any way, that wouldn't be an easy thing to do even if you had an interpret present. Some people will give up their blood for such a cause but not all of them. This is why most DNA testing centers do not have certain blood types and therefore cannot tell you about your ancestry if they do not have A DNA match for you on file. DNA testing centers for genetics makes that very clear before they test you for your DNA match.

Any way, how could it on one hand be world's population and sub section at the same time? Doesn't sound to specific or clear. I detect a huge flaw. Is it worlds population or a sub section of the world?

I need a source to check this out for my self.
As I finish up this post, I am googling, trying to find that source for my self, have any suggestions on where to start?

Originally Posted by Ch2tf

And Sista, I do remember the special-very well in fact-and Whoopi was indeed surprised/shocked/unprepared for the results of her comparison.

What exactly was the comparison?

[DSTCHAOS]

The term is actually "social construction." It should mean to Ch2tf what it means to everyone, regardless of how the definition is worded:

Constructs like race are not biological but are instead social designations and result in certain social interactions and meanings. We create meaning in our observed differences between people and exaggerate whatever differences there are.

As Luther said "a chair is still a chair, even if there's no one sitting there" because we decided that there is a such thing as a "chair."

[Sista]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

The term is actually "social construction." It should mean to Ch2tf what it means to everyone, regardless of how the definition is worded:

I interpret this as an indirect insult. Did I word that correctly, if so, you should know what I mean?

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Constructs like race are not biological but are instead social designations and result in certain social interactions and meanings. We create meaning in our observed differences between people and exaggerate whatever differences there are.
As Luther said "a chair is still a chair, even if there's no one sitting there" because we decided that there is a such thing as a "chair."

Luther's song was a good analogy for what it seems like you are saying.
From your idea of Social designations/Social construction, this means a persons race can change randomly, even within a ten year period depending on other factors.

I do a lot of traveling and I am constantly learning things which gives me a different social outlook to life and the people I meet in this life. Is my race determined by my exaggerated differences in others? If so, I am very mixed up...LOL

Suppose I am an adaptable person who pretty much becomes, with no problems at all, a part of any culture I am in the company of for long periods of time. What if I am a Nomad who does not really have a place to call home? Home would be basically where I unpack my things at once I arrive and where ever I arrive, the people are always very much so different from me, yet I manage to blend in?

"a chair is still a chair, even if there's no one sitting there"
"a Negro is a Negroe, even when he has went to Harvard"


No matter what, he will never change because his physical characteristics tells a story about him.

If the chair is made of material lets say wood and no one is sitting in the chair, for what ever reason, the chair can be chopped up and used for firewood. Before it was a chair, it was a pile of cut up trees.

The Negro will be and was always a Negro.

[DSTRen13]

Originally Posted by Sista

Luther's song was a good analogy for what it seems like you are saying.
From your idea of Social designations/Social construction, this means a persons race can change randomly, even within a ten year period depending on other factors.

Yes, exactly - a person's race is not fixed. The same person may be considered black in America and white somewhere else (Brazil, perhaps?), and some other thing entirely some other place. There are "races" which other countries label that we don't here - the entire concept of race is extremely fluid.

[Sista]

Originally Posted by DSTRen13

Yes, exactly - a person's race is not fixed. The same person may be considered black in America and white somewhere else (Brazil, perhaps?), and some other thing entirely some other place. There are "races" which other countries label that we don't here - the entire concept of race is extremely fluid.

What you are now saying in the above quote is a persons race is tied into the ignorance of other people? Well, that makes sense in a racist way.

Also, it looks like what you are saying is a persons race is not determined by he or she but by how other people/outsiders perceive them to be. Is that what you are also saying?

[laylo]

Originally Posted by Sista

What you are now saying in the above quote is a persons race is tied into the ignorance of other people? Well, that makes sense in a racist way.

Also, it looks like what you are saying is a persons race is not determined by he or she but by how other people/outsiders perceive them to be. Is that what you are also saying?

Other countries' and cultures' concepts of race are no more ignorant or racist than yours, they are simply different. The individual's concept of race is determined by the society through which s/he learned race (s/he is not an "outsider" if s/he is part of the society).

[AKA_Monet]

Well, actually, you do have both a SNP database and a hapmap that geographically designates populations of people. The point of this information is it is not individual--it is "population based". The genes themselves are not coding for anything, they are just EST's, non-coding regions, junk DNA, or RFLP's. It is the polymorphisms that are being compared from 1 million to 1 million, genome wide and cM or entire chromosome comparisons.

For instances, as I understand it, at the 21 chromosome the break to form 3 chromosomes is not ALWAYS in the same place for every child that has Down's. Most of the time it is. But it is that inherited changes that actually does not cause mutations in the parent, eventually getting to the child. Or the mutations are epigenetic which is begininng to modulate genes different from our understanding.

No, Homo sapiens sapiens are not genetically different, meaning all our genes are in the same place and where they should be. But we have high variation on how our genes are "spelled". And the similarities vs. the differences are being compared on an evolutionary level.

We are finding that the more different a genome is from another the older the group is in the population that shares similarities with those in Africa. Like they just found this guy who is related to Genghis Khan genome... They did a Y-chromosome spread.

For women, they do a mitochondrial spread.

I was going to send off my DNA to be sequenced and see what I could find... It's about $200+

[DSTRen13]

Originally Posted by laylo

Other countries' and cultures' concepts of race are no more ignorant or racist than yours, they are simply different. The individual's concept of race is determined by the society through which s/he learned race (s/he is not an "outsider" if s/he is part of the society).

Yes, this is what I meant

[Sista]

Originally Posted by laylo

Other countries' and cultures' concepts of race are no more ignorant or racist than yours, they are simply different.

This is the truth, we are all ignorant to some degree but that wasn't the point.

Originally Posted by laylo

The individual's concept of race is determined by the society through which s/he learned race (s/he is not an "outsider" if s/he is part of the society

I don't agree with this, I can't even agree that a part of what you said in the above quote has any type of validity.

I am a part of the American society, I am told that I am Black, African American, Colored and Negro, What will my society call me next? What you say in the above is, according to you.... My concept of race is determined by the society which I learned race, right? The people who labeled me the above names, they are not outsiders, they are right here in my society, so you tell me, which one of the titles should I accept or should I accept any of them?

Again, I don't agree that the people which live in your society are the ones who determined which race you are. Also, I am not a sponge so I don't go around letting people push onto me who I am. My individual concept is that I am African Origin and Afrcian decent, that's it and that's all.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Sista

I interpret this as an indirect insult. Did I word that correctly, if so, you should know what I mean?

Don't be so easily insulted. I like for people to get terms correct and for people to not debate over things that are undebatable. Simple as that. [/QUOTE]

[Sista]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Don't be so easily insulted. I like for people to get terms correct and for people to not debate over things that are undebatable. Simple as that.

Please excuse me, I didn't know you were so dictatorial, Oh, but then again, I did


Mr. Chaos, what gives you the right to say what is and what is not debatable? You like for people do get the terms correct? You have a lot of nerve. I wasn't insulted at all, I was being sarcastic and at the same time letting you know that I could read in betweeen your sublte lines.

Hey, are you a white man? You strike me as one

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Sista

Please excuse me, I didn't know you were so dictatorial, Oh, but then again, I did

Good.

[pinkies up]

Originally Posted by Sista

Please excuse me, I didn't know you were so dictatorial, Oh, but then again, I did


Mr. Chaos, what gives you the right to say what is and what is not debatable? You like for people do get the terms correct? You have a lot of nerve. I wasn't insulted at all, I was being sarcastic and at the same time letting you know that I could read in betweeen your sublte lines.

Hey, are you a white man? You strike me as one

CTFU!!!! LMAO!!!!! I'm sorry, that was the quote of the year!!!!

[Wolfman]

The following link will clear up what was done and how they did it on the series, "African American Lives," which has been alluded to several times. They were well aware of the false claims that can be made concerning the implication of genetic data. This is why,above the solid tests they used, they employed an archaeogeneticist and a biological anthropologist, both experts on the population groups of the continent, to try to correlate geography/tribal group to the genetic data of the participants in the series.

An interesting (and funny!) aside: On this program a prominent biological geneticist consulted, a white prof. at Penn State, informs Dr. Gates how he had this test done on himself. The results showed a genetically significant percentage of his ancestry was African. He told this to his mother who told him not to tell anyone about this. His mother had been keeping this family secret which he was in the dark about--although he had no problem with this "revelation." Genes don't lie; but we have to be careful to interpret the results responsibly. But, it seems to me, this discussion is about culture.

"African Americans" have been blessed with a horrific gift: a common cultural heritage forged out of the the experience of slavery and it's aftermath that's made disparate people/tribal groups into a basic identity, with various subgroups and identities. This has been the foundation of a political solidarity that made the Civil Rights Movement possible--something that has inspired peoples all over the world in their struggles for freedom. I remember talking with Palestinians in the Old City of Jerusalem and they commonly referring to me as "brother"--many of whom would, by phenotype, be considered "white" in this country. "African American" culture is grounded in Africa but is also of the American experience. "African Americans" only have to travel to find out how American they are culturally; and non-Americans understand better than whites in this country how African American culture is at the core of "Americaness."

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/aalives/profile_gates.html
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/aalives/about.html
http://www.bsos.umd.edu/ANTH/faculty/fjackson --a biological anthropologist consulted on the series.

[Sista]

Originally Posted by Wolfman

The following link will clear up what was done and how they did it on the series, "African American Lives," which has been alluded to several times. They were well aware of the false claims that can be made concerning the implication of genetic data. This is why,above the solid tests they used, they employed an archaeogeneticist and a biological anthropologist, both experts on the population groups of the continent, to try to correlate geography/tribal group to the genetic data of the participants in the series.

An interesting (and funny!) aside: On this program a prominent biological geneticist consulted, a white prof. at Penn State, tells Dr. Gates how he had had this test done on himself. The results showed a genetically significant percentage of his ancestry was African. He told this to his mother who told him not to tell anyone about this. His mother had been keeping this family secret which he was in the dark about--although he had no problem with this "revelation." Genes don't lie; but we have to be careful to interpret the results responsibly. But, it seems to me, this discussion is about culture.

"African Americans" have been blessed with a horrific gift: a common cultural heritage forged out of the the experience of slavery and it's aftermath that's made disparate people/tribal groups into a basic identity, with various subgroups and identities. This has been the foundation of a political solidarity that made the Civil Rights Movement possible--something that has inspired peoples all over the world in their struggles for freedom. I remember talking with Palestinians in the Old City of Jerusalem and they commonly referring to me as "brother"--many of whom would, by phenotype, would be considered "white" in this country. "African American" culture is grounded in Africa but is also of the American experience. "African Americans" only have to travel to find out how American they are culturally; and non-Americans understand better than whites in this country how African American culture is at the core of "Americaness."

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/aalives/profile_gates.html
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/aalives/about.html
http://www.bsos.umd.edu/ANTH/faculty/fjackson --a biological anthropologist consulted on the series.

Thanks for the links


by the way, good post.