The Seinfeld Dude....

[DSTKellie]

Originally Posted by 06pilot

So, if 3/4 of white people are racists, what percentage of black people are racists?

Well personally I dont think black people are racist. We don't benefit from racism. Because racism is a system that we cannot control. Are there black people that hate white people??? Of course! But this does not qualify as racism to me. (another topic for another day)

BTW: People apologize because its the right thing to do not because they really want to change.

Anyway, I seek no reason to support him or justify his outrageous rants. I've enjoyed a Seinfield episode now and then but I am content if I never see the show or him again.

Good point AKAMonet!

[shinerbock]

On a side note, in response to the above post...I'm not sure what logic you're using in deciding that white people hating black people is racism but black people hating whites isnt...however, if your idea has merit, how would that affect something like hate crime legislation? They're usually racially/sexual orientation motivated, so would you support hate crime status for crimes by blacks against whites, if there was indication that the victim being white factored into the decision to commit the crime? Just curious.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

On a side note, in response to the above post...I'm not sure what logic you're using in deciding that white people hating black people is racism but black people hating whites isnt...

I don't consider white people hating black people to automatically be racism. It is prejudice. The difference, that can make hatred turn into discrimination and/or racism, is that white people hating black people tends to translate into action whereas blacks who hate whites tends to not to translate into action. How many blacks can have stable, good jobs and accumulate wealth through separatism and without the input of a white person who is not a subordinate? However, many whites have always had stable, good jobs and accumulated wealth through separatism (opportunity hoarding) and without the input of blacks who were not subordinates. This is the opportunity and power differential.

Action does not include someone getting mad and whooping someone's ass one day. Action means systemic exclusion and differential treatment (and even systemic violence similar to the lynching era).

Originally Posted by shinerbock

however, if your idea has merit, how would that affect something like hate crime legislation? They're usually racially/sexual orientation motivated, so would you support hate crime status for crimes by blacks against whites, if there was indication that the victim being white factored into the decision to commit the crime? Just curious.

I would. But "racism" is not a requirement for hate crimes or the legislation. You have to prove the person was targeting a specific group, usually due to prejudice and fear, not that the person was "racist."

[southernelle25]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

I don't consider white people hating black people to automatically be racism. It is prejudice. The difference, that can make hatred turn into discrimination and/or racism, is that white people hating black people tends to translate into action whereas blacks who hate whites tends to not to translate into action. How many blacks can have stable, good jobs and accumulate wealth through separatism and without the input of a white person who is not a subordinate? However, many whites have always had stable, good jobs and accumulated wealth through separatism (opportunity hoarding) and without the input of blacks who were not subordinates. This is the opportunity and power differential.

But isn't it true that the reason black hatred tends to not translate into action is because of the actions (or inaction) of blacks themselves. Blacks have as much opportunity - if not more, as other minority groups in America to thrive on their own internal community investments. They choose not to. Are these blacks not racist, then, just because they elect not to utilize the power they in fact have?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by southernelle25

But isn't it true that the reason black hatred tends to not translate into action is because of the actions (or inaction) of blacks themselves.

No one is discussing why the power differentials are the way they are. And you don't just get power at a societal level and tear down the status quo through positive self-thought and a go-get-em attitude.

But if you must know, NO, the disproportionate condition of blacks in this country is not solely attributable to the actions (or inaction) of blacks themselves. And, NO, blacks do not have the same, if not more, opportunities as other racial and ethnic minorities in this country. No other racial and ethnic minority group in this country has the history that blacks have. You can not look at the present and future without examining the remnants of the past. A past that isn't as distant as people have been told to believe.

But I would like for you to use this retort whenever someone discusses gender inequality and the gender status quo that keeps job ceilings, sex segregation, and inequality in earnings. If women would learn to do better and realize their power, they would have nothing to complain about. Who cares if women's labor is devalued and this is a male dominated society? Cry babies.

[DSTKellie]

Thank you DSTChaos and AKA_Monet we are >>>here<<<.

DSTCHAOS you said exactly what I was trying to say and I couldn't agree more!!

[southernelle25]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

No one is discussing why the power differentials are the way they are.

My question doesn't go to why the power differentials are the way they are (or wasn't meant to), but to whether untapped power has a part in this discussion. The significance of power must be great and untapped power insignificant, if people can be considered capable of racism while in power and not capable of racism when they lose it or fail to realize it...

Earlier, you wrote that: "You can not have racism at any level without an ability to reinforce power differentials, opportunity to be discriminatory, and the incentive/gain from being discriminatory." However, I believe blacks do have that ability to shift power differentials, as well as the opportunity to be discriminatory, and an incentive/gain from being discriminatory (e.g. investing into their own communities the millions upon millions of dollars each year they invest outside those communities, by shopping at Bruh's down the street instead of at Tarjay). What effect does this potential have, if any, on whether a people can be considered capable of racism? None, apparently. That is what I wanted to know.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by southernelle25

My question doesn't go to why the power differentials are the way they are (or wasn't meant to)

You didn't mean to but you did and you're doing something I spoke against a few posts ago, failing to see the general and apply it to the specific. Your question has essentially been answered a few times in this thread already. But here goes the last time:

Until the race, class, and gender status quo is completly eliminated on a societal level, which is a huge feat, any shifts in the status quo are temporary and small scale. That goes for untapped power or untapped beer cans.

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by DSTKellie

Well personally I dont think black people are racist.

I beg to differ. I've seen black people who were racist. Asians, hispanics, etc.

I'm afraid hate comes in all colours.

[DSTKellie]

Please let me explain. I never said that Black people were not hateful and that they d0 not hate whites. Please re-read what i posted.

The definition of racism a system that believes that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. Racist people are those who use the system, forms of prejudice and discrimination to keep ones race as superior and another race as inferior. Black people do not benefit from racism. If a black owner decided not to serve white people, guess what? White people would still be superior. White people perpetuate stereotypes, names and other tactics to remain the superior race. As in Michael Richards performance he showed his true opinion about blacks and revealed his racism when he made the comment about 50 yrs ago, pitchfork in ass blah blah whatever. That comment alone showed his true racism not so much of his use of the N-word. Again yes black people can be hateful but technically blacks are not racist because we do not control the system. If a black person hates a white person it isn't because the black person thinks the white person is inferior because of their physical characteristics. Usually its because of something the white person has done. Whites hated blacks merely based on physical characteristics alone. They felt that they were somewhat better that them because they did not possess the physical qualities of African Americans. Racism can be covert and overt. I see all the time. And sometimes your NICEST white people can still be racist. White people with "black" friends can still be racist. It's a belief system and most white people feel that they are better than other races because they are white.

My feelings are the same with sexism I don't believe that women can be sexist.

[Drolefille]

That power exists on that personal level, not just a societal one.
Wouldn't you say that a black person who refuses to serve a white person is the one in power at that particular point in time?? If it's about power and power alone, then it isn't just about society, it's about the interpersonal relationships. If a black teacher harasses his white students, then he, in the position of power, is racist. Using a racial slur puts you in power over the other person (no matter the color) by knocking them down a level.

[PhrozenGod01]

Originally Posted by DSTKellie

Please let me explain. I never said that Black people were not hateful and that they d0 not hate whites. Please re-read what i posted.

The definition of racism a system that believes that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. Racist people are those who use the system, forms of prejudice and discrimination to keep ones race as superior and another race as inferior. Black people do not benefit from racism. If a black owner decided not to serve white people, guess what? White people would still be superior. White people perpetuate stereotypes, names and other tactics to remain the superior race. As in Michael Richards performance he showed his true opinion about blacks and revealed his racism when he made the comment about 50 yrs ago, pitchfork in ass blah blah whatever. That comment alone showed his true racism not so much of his use of the N-word. Again yes black people can be hateful but technically blacks are not racist because we do not control the system. If a black person hates a white person it isn't because the black person thinks the white person is inferior because of their physical characteristics. Usually its because of something the white person has done. Whites hated blacks merely based on physical characteristics alone. They felt that they were somewhat better that them because they did not possess the physical qualities of African Americans. Racism can be covert and overt. I see all the time. And sometimes your NICEST white people can still be racist. White people with "black" friends can still be racist. It's a belief system and most white people feel that they are better than other races because they are white.

My feelings are the same with sexism I don't believe that women can be sexist.

Wow. I really have to disagree with a lot. Although the impact of racist ideologies and actions from white people has more significant results, anyone of any color can be a racist. I know some Black people who are extremely racist. I also know some women who are extremely sexist. Institutional patterns don't let anyone off the hook. The actions are more important. Racism gives mean actions a cold impersonal sting, and turns nice gestures into sugary, patronizing insults. If I make racist comments to people and hurt their feelings, I'm a racist, regardless of how much money they make, or what they do for a living. Even if I don't hurt their feelings, I would have a problem. The same goes with sexism. If a woman tells me that I am inferior because I am a man, then she would be a sexist, regardless of current trends. Even if I brush it off, that woman would probably raise her kids to treat others poorly for those reasons.

I really think that everyone is racist, if not xenophobic to some degree. It's the way we are all socialized. I mean, one only needs to look at the way space aliens are portrayed in movies, television, and books. If martians or something landed, the world would probably unite in destroying them or something, even if they didn't mean any harm. I'm not comparing the real implications of racism with [I]War of the Worlds[I] or anything, but we are all taught to make assumptions and fear people without getting to know them first.

[AKA_Monet]

DSTKellie,

You can explain with all your might about institutionalized racism but most folks on GC prefer to remain ignorant...

I know what racism is and what it is not.

It is about white supremacy... And I will leave it at that... Until folks have fully researchered under intense studies of Dr. Francis Cress Welsing and Dr. Na'im Akbar, then folks do not have any discussions with me...

Otherwise all folks can do is a search throughout the GC forums for the level of thinking of the collective groupthink...

I know what you talking about. And probably DSTChaos knows. And your arguments are undocumented and unsupported lacking logical conclusions. Now, you can decide if you want to pursue your opinions further, however, it is a useless gesture with likes of most GC folks...

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

DSTKellie,

You can explain with all your might about institutionalized racism but most folks on GC prefer to remain ignorant...

I know what racism is and what it is not.

It is about white supremacy... And I will leave it at that... Until folks have fully researchered under intense studies of Dr. Francis Cress Welsing and Dr. Na'im Akbar, then folks do not have any discussions with me...

Otherwise all folks can do is a search throughout the GC forums for the level of thinking of the collective groupthink...

I know what you talking about. And probably DSTChaos knows. And your arguments are undocumented and unsupported lacking logical conclusions. Now, you can decide if you want to pursue your opinions further, however, it is a useless gesture with likes of most GC folks...

Ah, institutionalized racisim.

I can agree that this is a horse of a different color. Were we discussion instituionalized racism, that might have made more sense. Racism at it's core however is bias based on race. NOT bias from the dominent race to the non-dominent. By your/DSTKellie's definition, a white person living in or visiting a predominantly Arab country could not be racist against Arabs. Same applies for an African country or an Asian one.



However, the idea that two sociologists (I assume) are the end all be all of ANY field as broad as racism is silly.

You are right however that her arguments are undocumented.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Ah, institutionalized racisim.

I can agree that this is a horse of a different color. Were we discussion instituionalized racism, that might have made more sense. Racism at it's core however is bias based on race. NOT bias from the dominent race to the non-dominent. By your/DSTKellie's definition, a white person living in or visiting a predominantly Arab country could not be racist against Arabs. Same applies for an African country or an Asian one.

So you all are discussing individual racism and only see racism as systemic when someone places "institutional" in front of it. Some textbooks still include sections on individual racism but it ends up confusing students as to what prejudice vs discrimination vs racism is.

Power is not about population size. Whites still comprise the largest percentage of this country, but places like South Afrika had the minority control the majority for years through Apartheid. So if the white person went to Arab and was in a position of power and influence and used this against the Arab people, it could be racism. However, I argue that many Arabs look racially "white" (according to N. America standards) enough to be able to assimilate into "whiteness" if they chose to--as many do when they come to America even to the point of marking "white" on the Census. So it wouldn't be racism that they face as much as it would be culturalism or ethnocentrism.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

You are right however that her arguments are undocumented.

No, they aren't undocumented and I assumed AKAMonet was being facetious.