What teachers really want to tell parents.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by katydidKD

this is why i said "im not going to argue" when DF tried to start shit with me. some people are just determined to bitch. not worth pleasing them.

You compared questioning a teacher to questioning a doctor. That's borderline insane behavior.

Unless you'd like teachers to be subject to malpractice suits? I do enjoy money ...

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Nobody claimed teachers call meetings to amuse themselves - you're fighting strawmen like they're on top of a hill at Normandy.

Think about what you've said, though:

1 - Parents who think Little Johnny is perfect, or close to it, are wildly overrating their child and make it difficult to get anything done.

2 - Teachers should be considered 99% (or more!) accurate (meaning perfect, or close to it) with their observations and analysis of child behavior, because after all, who wants to hold meetings?

Oh.

IRONY. It was irony. Perhaps hyperbole. Jeez.

1. - No. Parents who will not entertain the idea that their children are in need of help - be it behavior or scholastic - make it impossible for teachers to work with them to help their children.

2. - NO - I never said they were perfect in any way; I did say that they are not going to randomly call meetings without having some basis for doing so. If you want to argue that teachers -whatever percentage you wish - are in fact calling meetings with no basis, I'd like to know what you are basing that assumption on - your experience? A Study? What? Or are you arguing that teachers can't identify a child who is struggling scholastically or a behavior problem?

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

You compared questioning a teacher to questioning a doctor. That's borderline insane behavior.

Unless you'd like teachers to be subject to malpractice suits? I do enjoy money ...

It's an ANALOGY. Argument by analogy can indeed be a fallacy, but in this case the points of comparison do make a larger point about expectations of educated professionals.

And I recall a preschool last year being sued for the educational equivalent of malpractice in New York.

[scrapcat]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Nobody responded to my question re: grad school heli-moms.

Like, I really want to know if anyone has actually witnessed it at the grad level. I'm appalled and intrigued at the same time. LOL.

The most involved my mom got in my grad school prep and experiences was helping me move into my apt.

I had this experience as my daughter entered college. All the families sat in the large auditorium during orientation. The Dean explained how all the "business" end of college was the "young adults" responsibility. All grades and financial correspondence would go directly to the student. Of course one angry dad stood up and complained the "I'm paying for this and I get to see everything!" No said Mr. Dean. Students are adults and any information they choose to share is up to them! (I could hardly contain my laughter!) I bet there's one of those parents at every college orientation all over the country!

BTW: I'm a Special Ed teacher. Oh the stories I could tell!

[katydidKD]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

You compared questioning a teacher to questioning a doctor. That's borderline insane behavior.

Unless you'd like teachers to be subject to malpractice suits? I do enjoy money ...

now you're taking the analogy ridiculously out of context. I am saying that teachers are professionals and should be treated as such, just like you'd treat your doctor or lawyer. I just dont care to hear DF moan on and on. Like many other people.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by katydidKD

now you're taking the analogy ridiculously out of context. I am saying that teachers are professionals and should be treated as such, just like you'd treat your doctor or lawyer.

You said:

Originally Posted by katydidKD

People generally would not disagree with a doctor or lawyer as they would with a teacher.

So the point was more the way in which people disagree with teachers, and not the degree to which it happens?

I understand where you're coming from with the former, but the latter still seems wildly dismissive of the differences between professions, and I want to make sure I'm not putting any words into your mouth.

I definitely took "as" to mean "to the same extent" and if that was a misread, my bad.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

It's an ANALOGY. Argument by analogy can indeed be a fallacy, but in this case the points of comparison do make a larger point about expectations of educated professionals.

You and I both appear to have misinterpreted her, based on her subsequent post, so all good there - I can see how it could be read wrongly on my part, and completely buy her point.

I hear you about expectations (and teachers' education) but even if your interpretation was correct, it still hand-waves the differences in education (and expectation) between a doctor and a teacher.

Case in point:

And I recall a preschool last year being sued for the educational equivalent of malpractice in New York.

The "educational equivalent" isn't all that equivalent.

Bottom line: nobody should treat teachers with disrespect, derision or anything similar. But nobody should really treat anybody that way, particularly in a professional setting.

[katydidKD]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

You said:



So the point was more the way in which people disagree with teachers, and not the degree to which it happens?

I understand where you're coming from with the former, but the latter still seems wildly dismissive of the differences between professions, and I want to make sure I'm not putting any words into your mouth.

I definitely took "as" to mean "to the same extent" and if that was a misread, my bad.

Yes, i should have spoken more clearly.

[AlwaysSAI]

I have not read the entirety of this thread (& don't usually respond to these threads because I have very strong feelings). I stopped about pg. 3 at the Dr. Phil/SWTXBelle disagreement. But, I am going to add a few things.

It's hard to really understand the plight of a teacher if you aren't one. During my professional career, I have never gotten a raise. In fact, I've seen the responsibilities on my desk build while my pay has actually gone down.

Keep in mind while you read the below that I teach high school resource Algebra I.

I am an email teacher. It is a quick and easy way to contact a parent AND there's a written record of what conspired. That being said, I wish I could call parents. Can I call them? Yes, of course. The problem starts when parents want to talk to me for 45min (true story) about everything else going on that has hindered Little Johnny's completion of assignments. As a relatively new teacher, it has been hard to me to find a way to tell a parent who won't stop talking that "I'm sorry, but I need to go." In this day and age, it is routine for that parent to call the superintendent and tell him that I was rude to her for ending the conversation and don't care about Little Johnny. So, I've been at work since 6:30am and needed to leave at 4:30pm for a another commitment, but decided it was a good idea to quikly call Mrs. Jones to tell her that Johnny hasn't been completing assignments and before I can get off the phone, it's almost 5:30pm. There are two things I always want to say to Mrs. Jones: 1) I know Johnny is your only (or one of a few) little angel, but he's not my only little angel, so I've got work to do. 2) I do not disintegrate when the bell rings and I have responsibilities in the evenings.

The other issue is (and I think it's been mentioned) is that parents will lie. There is no record of a phone conversation except what I write down on my contact log (which is not written in stone). For example, last year, I was called into guidance because of a student in my class. I wasn't told any details of the parent's previous behavior. What I was told is: If the mom calls, put her on hold and get another teacher to come sit in the room while you talk to her. If this mom shows up on parent teacher conference day, ask her to wait while you go get another teacher. The message here: Never meet with this parent alone. Luckily, the child was never a problem for me and I worked very hard with her, so I was never on the mom's bad side.

There is a cartoon . The left side depicts education 30 years ago. The kid has an "F" on an assignment and the parent is shaking their finger at the student. The right side depicts present day education. The kid has an "F" on an assignment and the parent is shaking their finger at the teacher. (I wish I could find it)

There is very little personal accountability going on. In my mind, if you don't do the assignments you get zeros and your grade will go down. Natural consequence. Next time, you'll do your assignments. That is not seen as a valid argument for teachers. It will automatically (and has, even in my short career) become my fault that Little Suzie has 8 zeros. I have resorted to providing time for Little Suzie (and everyone else) to complete her assignments even if they were in school that day, but opted not to complete them the first time. And, I do this all for CYA, so that if mom is mad at me that Little Suzie failed, I can say: "I devoted x day and b day to make-up work entirely and she chose again not to complete it." (And, this is all backed up by the assignment schedule that is updated on my website daily.)

Little Suzie, Little Johnny, and all their Little Friends are going to be the college kids taking their professors notes from mommy on why the take home final isn't done. And, please tell me, how are they going to survive corporate america (or any country where they will be held responsible for tasks not completed.)

I love my job, but some days.....I just wonder.

ETA: I needed to quote/respond this:

Originally Posted by scrapcat

BTW: I'm a Special Ed teacher. Oh the stories I could tell!

DITTO! DITTO! DITTO!

[TriDeltaSallie]

Originally Posted by AlwaysSAI

There is a cartoon . The left side depicts education 30 years ago. The kid has an "F" on an assignment and the parent is shaking their finger at the student. The right side depicts present day education. The kid has an "F" on an assignment and the parent is shaking their finger at the teacher. (I wish I could find it)

It is because we have gone from the Land of Opportunity to the Land of Entitlement.

Getting a good education used to be an opportunity. People made the most of it. Those who worked hard, succeeded. Those who didn't work hard, didn't.

Now education is seen as a right, an entitlement. And many of the people with this mentality about education can't be bothered to lift a finger to contribute to the process.

This is why I made my original comment. Until our culture changes, education will not change. Teachers cannot change it. Schools cannot change it. Until parents learn what it means to be responsible individuals and teach their children to be responsible individuals, it is only going to get worse.

The previous comment about teachers being the new race discussion is very accurate. Part of this stems from the union attitudes that no longer fly with many Americans. A few years ago the union in Michigan tried to pass a law that teachers would always get a raise no matter what the economic conditions in the state. It was soundly defeated. Because of what is going on in the economy, the average middle class taxpayer finally realizes that their tax dollars are paying for the teachers getting a guaranteed raise. When the average taxpayer can't even find a job or keep health insurance, why in the world would they vote for such a thing? It doesn't mean they don't value teachers. It means if they have to choose between having extra $$$ in their pocket every month to feed their family or give the teachers a raise... What do you think they will choose?

Funding for education and teachers used to be a sacred cow and it isn't any longer. The ever increasing funding for education is over. I'm not advocating either view. I'm just stating the facts that are there for everyone to see.

[GammaPhi88]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

I've HEARD of heli-parenting extending beyond undergrad, but I thought this was just myth? This really happens?

Like, there is a such thing as a law school/med school heli-mom?

I really don't know what I'd do if a grad school classmate told me "Yeah Dr. Whatever wasn't going to let me into that section of Special Ed Research, but my mom called and she got him to let me in."

Oh, there is. I haven't witnessed them personally at my own law school, as most people I've met are wonderful and self-reliant adults, but I've heard stories from the admissions people. Apparently, they get all sorts of nasty e-mails from parents when they reject a student, and to them, this is reinforcement that they made the correct choice. Who wants a lawyer who's mom will call and yell at you when you sue them for malpractice? I'd be mortified if my parents called the law school or one of my professors about anything...I'm 23 next week and capable of that myself!

[AlwaysSAI]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

What was the disagreement about? I would love to know what SWTXBelle is disagreeing with. Seriously.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

And as to being "stuck" - I've decided that you are determined to misconstrue anything I write, so I'll just bow to the inevitable and say I apologize in 12 different positions for thinking that my 20+ years as a parent and as an educator gave me any special insight to what may have prompted the article or how to improve parent/teacher communication.

Seems like there was a disagreement. To me, anyway.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

The "plight of a teacher" and "it's hard to understand" themes are well-founded but they set a tone that is not conducive to an actual discussion depending on who you are speaking with. Educators want people to work toward understanding and assist where possible but yet some of us (educators) want to insist that there is a struggle and a plight that is so difficult to understand even to the point that when people say "I understand but..." we (educators) respond with "there is no 'but,' you probably don't really understand, even if you do...just end there." We (educators) really can't have it both ways in practice. We (educators) can have it both ways in theory but not in practice.

I agree with you 100%. I rarely ask for people in other professions to understand because the "grass is always greener". I think my mom is a big wig who sits in an office all day and gets the entire 8 hours to complete her work and hardly takes any work home. She would disagree.

When I feel like I need someone to truly understand the day I had at school, I call another teacher.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

(I read and agree with the rest of your post but this is the part that I wanted to respond to. )

[katydidKD]

Originally Posted by GammaPhi88

Oh, there is. I haven't witnessed them personally at my own law school, as most people I've met are wonderful and self-reliant adults, but I've heard stories from the admissions people. Apparently, they get all sorts of nasty e-mails from parents when they reject a student, and to them, this is reinforcement that they made the correct choice. Who wants a lawyer who's mom will call and yell at you when you sue them for malpractice? I'd be mortified if my parents called the law school or one of my professors about anything...I'm 23 next week and capable of that myself!

i'm in law school too! appalling...

[33girl]

Originally Posted by TriDeltaSallie

The previous comment about teachers being the new race discussion is very accurate. Part of this stems from the union attitudes that no longer fly with many Americans. A few years ago the union in Michigan tried to pass a law that teachers would always get a raise no matter what the economic conditions in the state. It was soundly defeated. Because of what is going on in the economy, the average middle class taxpayer finally realizes that their tax dollars are paying for the teachers getting a guaranteed raise. When the average taxpayer can't even find a job or keep health insurance, why in the world would they vote for such a thing? It doesn't mean they don't value teachers. It means if they have to choose between having extra $$$ in their pocket every month to feed their family or give the teachers a raise... What do you think they will choose?

Funding for education and teachers used to be a sacred cow and it isn't any longer. The ever increasing funding for education is over. I'm not advocating either view. I'm just stating the facts that are there for everyone to see.

In the small town I grew up in, the people in the big houses on what we called Snob Hill are, increasingly, teachers. It's kind of hard to get people to feel sorry for them having to pay union dues and their own health insurance when most of them are living better than 90% of the people in town.

However, that doesn't mean that I think they should cut the funding to the SCHOOL. Funding for education and teachers' salaries are two different things. I'll gladly pay anytime for more teachers to keep the class sizes smaller, updated textbooks, etc. I won't gladly pay, however, so the current tenured teachers are making almost 6 figures a year. I believe most people agree.

[AXOmom]

^^^I'm clearly living in the WRONG state. I've taught for over 20 years with enough graduate credits for 2 masters, and I am not within spitting distance of a 6 figure salary. Where is this amazing Snob Hill place? I'm outta here and headed there - LOL!