GreekChat.com Forums  

Go Back   GreekChat.com Forums > Risk Management - Hazing & etc.
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Risk Management - Hazing & etc. This forum covers Risk Management topics such as: Hazing, Alcohol Abuse/Awareness, Date Rape Awareness, Eating Disorder Prevention, Liability, etc.

» GC Stats
Members: 329,761
Threads: 115,670
Posts: 2,205,227
Welcome to our newest member, juliaswift6676
» Online Users: 2,250
2 members and 2,248 guests
shadokat
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 10-12-2010, 01:41 AM
djpsk21 djpsk21 is offline
GreekChat Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 15
DrPhil....sarcasm not appreciated. I am really trying to make a difference here and be an agent of change. If you can't be constructive, then please don't waste my time by replying
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-12-2010, 08:38 AM
BluPhire BluPhire is offline
GreekChat Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 725
Quote:
Originally Posted by djpsk21 View Post
DrPhil....sarcasm not appreciated. I am really trying to make a difference here and be an agent of change. If you can't be constructive, then please don't waste my time by replying
Or you can not waste your time by reading and replying.
__________________
Ever wonder what goes through the my mind when I'm drooling? Click here and find out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Xa4bHcJu8
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-12-2010, 08:41 AM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,730
Quote:
Originally Posted by djpsk21 View Post
DrPhil....sarcasm not appreciated. I am really trying to make a difference here and be an agent of change. If you can't be constructive, then please don't waste my time by replying
What a busy time you have when my reply is wasting it. Don't be so easily knocked off of your horse. You will find it very difficult to transition from rhetoric to change.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-12-2010, 09:21 AM
lucgreek lucgreek is offline
GreekChat Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 501
I'd rather not see this turn off topic into a bunch of useless/sarcastic replies, since there is a lot of potential for the thread, so I'll try to steer the ship back before we head into the iceberg:

OP: Are you the only one who wants change? Get a group of other like-minded people together before telling your chapter why they need to change. If you have a group of people already supporting you, it will make it harder for people ingrained in the hazing mindset to say, "Well that's only one person in the chapter, who cares?"

If your brothers are still all for hazing, you should speak with your advisor and regional director.

Like other have said, change needs to happen slowly otherwise your chapter may implode on itself. But if the hazing is incredibly risky/potential for bodily harm or death/risk for your charter to be taken away, you need to get rid of that stuff ASAP.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-12-2010, 09:25 AM
Senusret I Senusret I is offline
GreekChat Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucgreek View Post

If your brothers are still all for hazing, you should speak with your advisor and regional director.
Yes, do this and assure being socially ostracized for not only your remaining years in college, but pretty much any alumni event you attend in the future.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10-12-2010, 09:39 AM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,730
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucgreek View Post
I'd rather not see this turn off topic into a bunch of useless/sarcastic replies, since there is a lot of potential for the thread, so I'll try to steer the ship back before we head into the iceberg:
And you could've typed your post without this.

This thread is practically useless and threads like this encourage people to come to GC for things that aren't GC material. The OP has a national organization with a national standard that most likely provides assistance with how to address such issues. Yet, he is on GC for advice which is never a good idea. Either way, he needs to understand that there are and will always be people who believe that hazing is the best answer. If my saying that sarcastically gets a response then he has a difficult road ahead of him. He has yet to show his brothers that hazing isn't the best answer because he is still searching for even the most basic advice on how to do so. His difficulty is linked to the fact that it isn't solely his job to show his brothers that hazing isn't the best answer. He needs to search for the most basic answers to this question outside of GC and get assistance outside of GC by contacting representatives from his organization.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-12-2010, 09:43 AM
lucgreek lucgreek is offline
GreekChat Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senusret I View Post
Yes, do this and assure being socially ostracized for not only your remaining years in college, but pretty much any alumni event you attend in the future.
Or stay quiet, something bad happens, then find yourself and the chapter facing charges and a civil suit ($$$). Then you're kicked out of the fraternity and probably your school.

Then again, I assume the worst when it comes to hazing. The OP said it's "not so bad," but I have no idea what they are cocmparing it to. "Not so bad" could be tossing peanuts at pledges when they mess up the greek alphabet, "not so bad" could be paddling. I only recommend going to your regional director if it's a substantial issue. (Like, involving bodily harm vs. Having pledges clean up after a party).

If you approach the situation from a "hey, I'm concerned we could get into trouble and lose our charter" standpoint, you'll be much better than approaching from a "you all are hazing and should be punished for it" standpoint.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-12-2010, 09:44 AM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senusret I View Post
Yes, do this and assure being socially ostracized for not only your remaining years in college, but pretty much any alumni event you attend in the future.
That depends. There are different ways to go about speaking to an advisor or regional director without telling them that hazing is an issue. I have seen it happen a few times where concerned members reach out by saying that they are looking for membership ideas that highlight the many positives of sisterhood/brotherhood.

Afterall, his taking the basic ideas (these ideas are extremely basic) from this thread and trying to incorporate them could also lead to his being ignored, laughed at, ostracized, etc. Who wants to be around a sister or brother who is telling them that they are doing it all wrong? Who wants to be around a sister or brother who is acting as though he or she has figured it all out?

What the OP is trying to do can fail and so can speaking with a formal or informal organizational representative. Since the OP came to GC seeking advice, I would never advise someone beyond telling them to speak to their GLO's representative (since speaking to the chapter has obviously not worked yet).

Last edited by DrPhil; 10-12-2010 at 10:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-12-2010, 09:54 AM
BluPhire BluPhire is offline
GreekChat Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 725
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucgreek View Post
I'd rather not see this turn off topic into a bunch of useless/sarcastic replies, since there is a lot of potential for the thread, so I'll try to steer the ship back before we head into the iceberg:
Too late.

This very response opens the door to useless and sarcastic replies. Like I told the OP when he went all huffy over what Dr Phil said, ignore it.

That separates folks that are serious for answers to folks who just want to start threads so they can be center of attention.
__________________
Ever wonder what goes through the my mind when I'm drooling? Click here and find out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Xa4bHcJu8
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-12-2010, 10:03 AM
lucgreek lucgreek is offline
GreekChat Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post
That depends. There are different ways to go about speaking to an advisor or regional director without telling them that hazing is an issue. I have seen it happen a few times where concerned members reach out by saying that they are looking for membership ideas that highlight the many positives of sisterhood/brotherhood.
Agreed. It's all in the approach. Coming across as 'holier than thou' addressing hazing issues in the chapter will undoubtedly get you laughed out of the chapter room. Coming across as concerned might bring more people out of the woodwork and win you some support.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10-12-2010, 10:11 AM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,730
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucgreek View Post
Agreed. It's all in the approach. Coming across as 'holier than thou' addressing hazing issues in the chapter will undoubtedly get you laughed out of the chapter room. Coming across as concerned might bring more people out of the woodwork and win you some support.
To be honest with you, the OP can easily come across as holier than thou and probably even quick to intolerance and anger when chapter members defend the existing new member program. Even saying that you (in general) are trying to change a new member program automatically gets a negative response from many people. Then saying it isn't "so bad as it could be" just seems like you're (in general) contradicting yourself as though you aren't too sure of what the issues are.

Last edited by DrPhil; 10-12-2010 at 10:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-12-2010, 11:09 PM
EE-BO EE-BO is offline
GreekChat Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by djpsk21 View Post
There is a national standard and that is what i am wanting move towards. On the same note, I love my brothers and this brotherhood. There is always resistance to change, that is obvious. I am looking for either advice or what others have successfully gone through or implemented this kind of change.

I want to create change but not at the expense of losing half of my brothers. They really are not bad people, they just don't know anyother way. That's why I am posting on a public forming and seeking assistance/guidance.
I suspect this is not your intent, but your second paragraph comes off as sounding like you think you are an inherently better person than a lot of guys in your chapter. You may have a good idea here depending on your specific circumstances, but with age and experience I can tell you that marketing an idea is even more important than the idea itself when it comes to successful implementation. Do a Google search on the war between Beta and VHS many years ago for a good example. Beta was a superior product, but it is VHS players that prevailed until DVDs came along.

Defining hazing is very important for you at this point. You need to come up with a concise definitition of exactly what you want to eradicate and why. One suggestion I would have is to do another Google search- or check your college's Greek Life site- and read the hazing laws in your state.

I have read many such laws and while they provide specific examples of what COULD be hazing, the overriding spirit of such laws gets to the intent of the activity and what it actually does to pledges in terms of forcing them to break the law or be truly "humiliated".

Forcing a pledge who is 18 years old to drink until he is drunk and then drive a vehicle is a no-brainer. Major law violations. But who really does that? These black and white scenarios are rarely the reality.

Let's take something that is a bit more gray- requiring a pledge to learn fraternity lore. It is a necessary exercise- but in many laws it is cited as an example of hazing depending on how the requirement is enforced.

A pledge is required to learn, each week, fraternity history. Do you consider this hazing?

Let's say a pledge must take a test each week covering material he was supposed to learn the prior week. Hazing?

If the pledge takes the test and gets below a 70, he has to do 20 pushups. Is this hazing?

If the pledge gets below a 70 on the test and is banned from social events until he gets a 70 or greater on this test- hazing?

If the pledge gets below a 70 on the test and is placed before a kangaroo court of actives who scare him into thinking he will get depledged if he does not get a 70 or better on a future retest- is this hazing?

The pledge gets below a 70 on the test and is pestered by actives when he is at the house with questions on the same material, and minor punishments like pushups or washing cars until he starts getting the answers right. Is this hazing?

The pledge gets below 70 on a lore test and is automatically dropped from pledgeship. Not hazing- rather he failed to meet a basic requirement. This is the option that has you 100% free and clear of ever being accused of hazing, but is this the tone you want to set? I can tell you this is not how things work in the real world- which fraternities are supposed to mimic and prepare members for professional success.

These are the questions I would suggest you ask yourself as you plan your new pledging program. As my last example showed- there is a way to make pledges prove their worth by their effort to become members without ever doing anything that anyone could ever consider hazing- but it also means acting in a way that is counter to what fraternities are all about.

One other thing to consider- remember that INTENT is the most important thing when looking at acts that could be considered hazing.

When I was a pledge, one night we had to do a mini tour in neckties and our underwear- and nothing else- and serenade several sorority houses. They loved it- and it made a good story for all of us to reminisce on later.

Some might consider this hazing, but it was not hazing in the illegal sense of the term. Those who were too uptight to participate would not only make bad pledges, but were also probably not suited for any kind of membership in any kind of group where people have a little fun at their own expense to make the world a little more interesting, even if only for a few moments.

When it comes to dangerous hazing activities, I will tell you that I think alcohol is the absolute #1 contributor to pledge activities gone wrong.

Three simple rules can save a chapter from the worst 99% of the time;

1. Noone is forced to drink.
2. Sober active executive officers are present at every pledge activity and have the guts, chapter respect and/or physical presence to prevent anything from getting out of hand.
3. Noone- and I mean noone- gets into a car or is left alone (especially in the wild) after having anything to drink.

You take care of this- and you have covered the three most common hallmarks of situations that result in non-productive pledge activities, injury and death.

I for one would love to see a very honest and open conversation about hazing on this forum- and the seeds of it are here already. But OP- please consider your position in greater detail and report back. There are many people here with good answers, but we need to know where you draw the line and your underlying reasons for drawing that line.

Hope this is helpful.
__________________
The GC Master Beta
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10-13-2010, 12:14 AM
djpsk21 djpsk21 is offline
GreekChat Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 15
Thank you EVERYONE for your replies. They have been really helpful so far! I guess the biggest hurdle I am facing right now is that brothers want to keep the "spirit" of the hazing but are starting to understand that they shouldn't haze. However, they still have that "tick" that says "we went through it...why should they get a free pass...they should earn their way into this chapter". I want to try to keep that same spirit while eliminating the negativity.

I have ideas such as having them complete a project or addition to the house, as a class, before they can initiate. A common cause they can come together for, depend on each other to complete and must have finished it "on time" so there is still the pressure of a deadline. This can be an addition in or outside of the house, but something where they are also able to leave their mark.

I want them to have required study hours, weekly quizzes on history and fraternity information, etc. I want to build them up instead of them being torn down. How is them doing a brothers laundry or washing cars being an "addition" to the house? How is it helping them as a person? How does it relate to the fraternities values and principles?

I have a team of guys who are on my side. However, as I mentioned previously, they still want the new guys to respect the house and the letters as much as they do and unfortunately, the only way they know is through hazing because that is how they were brought in.

I have people willing to support change. I have the national program for my chapter, but I am seeking others opinions, ideas, etc so I can truly create a phenomenal program. This is a unique opportunity that I have to really implement change. I want to do it the best possible way instead of making a change that is just "good enough" for now and then has to be continuously updated. As I am sure we can all agree, change the window opportunity for change only opens every now and then so now that there is an opening, I really want to take advantage of it.

Can anyone share what their pledgeship was like? What kind of stuff did you do with your class? Was it just meetings about the fraternity and history? Were there tests? Does anyone know of any team building exercises that are useful?

I am seeking help from GC because I value the knowledge of others. I know what my National HQ wants me to do, I am curious to what others have done. That way, maybe I can make a good program even better. Further, maybe some ideas can come out on this forum that can help others that are having similar issues.

Again, thank you all for your replies so far. I look forward to reading some more insightful thoughts and on to make this very important change.

Last edited by djpsk21; 10-13-2010 at 12:17 AM. Reason: typos
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 10-13-2010, 12:33 AM
knight_shadow knight_shadow is offline
GreekChat Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 14,146
Quote:
Originally Posted by djpsk21 View Post
Can anyone share what their pledgeship was like? What kind of stuff did you do with your class? Was it just meetings about the fraternity and history? Were there tests? Does anyone know of any team building exercises that are useful?

I am seeking help from GC because I value the knowledge of others. I know what my National HQ wants me to do, I am curious to what others have done. That way, maybe I can make a good program even better. Further, maybe some ideas can come out on this forum that can help others that are having similar issues.
I'm sorry, but what others did during their programs is irrelevant. If your organization has a system in place, you need to try to move toward using that. I could tell you that my class did sheep herding because it was related to our ritual, but that wouldn't help you.

Just try to reinforce what your I/HQ already has in place.

Good luck.
__________________
*does side bends and sit-ups*
*doesn't lose butt*

Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 10-13-2010, 12:58 AM
EE-BO EE-BO is offline
GreekChat Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by djpsk21 View Post
I want them to have required study hours, weekly quizzes on history and fraternity information, etc. I want to build them up instead of them being torn down.
This is where we are disconnecting. You are talking in idealistic terms, and I am asking you to think about the practical aspects of the program you want to put in place. Rules you set now will only work if they are honored by the chapter in practice as well as in principle.

Required study hours are considered hazing by many definitions- and I personally do not think they are a good idea. Where will study hours take place? If you have a pledge who is doing fine on grades and gets most of his work done in labs, do you want to force him to come to study hours in addition to what is already working for/expected of him? If he comes- will the environment be conducive to the one in which he personally works best? You are talking about putting structure and rules into place- and you have to consider EVERY scenario that could come up since rules have to be enforced equally and making exceptions for certain people in practice as exceptions come up will not work.

And on the quizzes, what are the consequences if someone is failing quizzes and not learning the lore? It is one thing to say pledges need to "learn the lore", but how do you make sure it happens? How much is learning the lore an absolute requirement versus the attempt being a symbol of someone's serious interest? What if you have an A+ pledge who just does not have the time to be a whiz at the lore due to his school schedule?

You are speaking to ideals- the question now is what are the practical standards you which to enforce, and how will they be enforced? This is not an easy question, but the answer is there if you can slow down and really think through the mechanics of what you are trying to achieve.

What are you trying to achieve? What about your chapter gives you concern about how pledgeship is conducted? What did you personally feel about your own pledgeship? How did that differ from what your pledge brothers feel about it? Where do you want to go with this initiative?
__________________
The GC Master Beta
Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hazing Aduladi Locals 35 11-12-2007 03:34 PM
Three Donna coaches fired following hazing accusations (HS Football hazing) LXAAlum Risk Management - Hazing & etc. 2 03-17-2005 05:47 PM
Article re:Hazing-'Hazing' is a nice word for white kids who act violently NinjaPoodle Sigma Gamma Rho 1 05-24-2003 07:19 AM
Hazing: Is it always bad? Beggar Risk Management - Hazing & etc. 66 03-22-2002 06:12 PM
Hazing James Risk Management - Hazing & etc. 15 10-09-2001 06:40 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.