Plegdes wearing letters???

[33girl]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

Re: the comments about most NPC chapters allowing NMs to wear letters and not crests, I've never heard this before. Can anyone provide some evidence for this on a NPC-wide basis? In my view, I can't really see what the difference would be, from a "treating NMs differently is hazing" perspective, between letters and crests. Also, I don't really see NMs jumping at the opportunity to wear tshirts with their crests. Because most people on a college campus would not immediately recognize what the heck their crest even is. But... I'm willing to be convinced of this fact. I've never heard such a thing for Pi Phi.

Our rationale is that the crest as a whole is only fully understood after you go through the initiation ceremony. Whereas our letters have an open meaning (Aspire, Seek, Attain) that anyone can see anywhere. I would assume AST (Active, Self-Reliant, Trustworthy) is the same way.*

And as far as crests are concerned, they used to be a lot more popular when people were still getting screen printed sweatshirts in general. The crest sweatshirts now - at least the ones I've seen - cost SO much for the stitched ones and I think that's why a lot of people don't wear them.

*ETA: I am only speaking for my group as to why wearing letters as a pledge would be OK. I absolutely would not and do not presume to say that any other group should do the same, as I don't know what their letters mean or if they have an open motto that corresponds directly to them. My reason for using the AST example is 1) they were on my campus 2) they used their open motto frequently 3) the open mottos (AST's and ASA's) have the same initials in English as they do in Greek.

[ASTalumna06]

I looked briefly, and I am not able to find anything written as of now that says “new members can wear letters”. But why does something have to be written to be understood? Do you need someone to write down that you should take a shower in the morning? No. You just do it, because that’s what should be done.

So… while there is no clear definition concerning this, I will try and explain my take on this.

First of all, our hazing policy mentions 3 categories of hazing. The second 2 discuss harassment and emotional and physical harm. But the first one reads:

• Subtle/evasive – actions which violate the values, purposes, and ideals of Alpha Sigma Tau.

It goes on to read:

The senseless act of hazing not only creates liability risk for the chapter and the entire sorority, but also hinders the development of friendships that are the basis of sisterhood.

How do you help your new members develop friendships with the group if they are not allowed to be visibly associated with it?

As breathesgelatin said, who wears the crest on their t-shirts? Nobody, really. But the crest is a special symbol that represents the ideals of your organization in a way that only initiated members can fully understand. Same with the initiated member badge. These are things that are acquired with the completion of a new member program. But your letters define you as a member of the organization, whether you’re a brother/sister or a new member who just went through their first ceremony. The actual letters on a page mean very little. If you were to see the letter “alpha” or “A”, it would be very insignificant. Even a few of them together… AST. In theory, these letters mean something to me. But to other people, they may be just 3 random letters together. Essentially, your letters simply identify you as part of one organization as opposed to another. They "name" your organization. But look at your crest. Anyone can see that there are symbols and words that most likely have meaning, but obviously only to those to whom they have been explained.

I mean, how do you create a new Greek organization? What is the first thing people do? Or at least the easiest thing they do? They chose letters. There is no process to it, except figuring out which sets of letters have already been taken. And then you put those letters on a t-shirt. It’s not hard. It means very little if you have nothing to back it up.

As 33girl said, like ASA (and many other Greek organizations), AST has an open motto. "Active, Self-Reliant, Trustworthy". And I hope our new members would know and understand this and display these personality traits. (I mean, this is the first thing we teach them!) This motto is the meaning of our letters, and anyone, including non-Greeks, can know that. And if they didn’t display these characteristics, they wouldn’t have become new members in the first place.

The point of being in a brotherhood/sisterhood is to welcome new members, to make new friends, and to form life-long connections. It’s not to make people feel like outsiders by denying them something as basic as wearing the letters that associate them with that organization.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

How do you help your new members develop friendships with the group if they are not allowed to be visibly associated with it?

By participating in activities associated with the organization. If wearing a shirt/jacket/etc is the only way that a person can build a connection with my GLO, I don't want him in.

As breathesgelatin said, who wears the crest on their t-shirts? Nobody, really. But the crest is a special symbol that represents the ideals of your organization in a way that only initiated members can fully understand. Same with the initiated member badge. These are things that are acquired with the completion of a new member program. But your letters define you as a member of the organization, whether you’re a brother/sister or a new member who just went through their first ceremony. The actual letters on a page mean very little. If you were to see the letter “alpha” or “A”, it would be very insignificant. Even a few of them together… AST. In theory, these letters mean something to me. But to other people, they may be just 3 random letters together. Essentially, your letters simply identify you as part of one organization as opposed to another. They "name" your organization. But look at your crest. Anyone can see that there are symbols and words that most likely have meaning, but obviously only to those to whom they have been explained.

All organizations don't have open meanings for their letters. So, just like with the crest, there is a special meaning behind the letters that only full members would know and understand.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

But the crest is a special symbol that represents the ideals of your organization in a way that only initiated members can fully understand. Same with the initiated member badge. These are things that are acquired with the completion of a new member program. But your letters define you as a member of the organization, whether you’re a brother/sister or a new member who just went through their first ceremony. The actual letters on a page mean very little. If you were to see the letter “alpha” or “A”, it would be very insignificant. Even a few of them together… AST. In theory, these letters mean something to me. But to other people, they may be just 3 random letters together. Essentially, your letters simply identify you as part of one organization as opposed to another. They "name" your organization. But look at your crest. Anyone can see that there are symbols and words that most likely have meaning, but obviously only to those to whom they have been explained. . . .
The point of being in a brotherhood/sisterhood is to welcome new members, to make new friends, and to form life-long connections. It’s not to make people feel like outsiders by denying them something as basic as wearing the letters that associate them with that organization.

You're speaking from the perspective of being a member of your organization, and that's fine as far as your organization goes. But you're new here. If there's one lesson to be learned above all others at GC, it's that all GLOs, despite their many similarities, are different. What may be true of your organization is not necessarily true of other orgs.

Two examples: You say, "But your letters define you as a member of the organization, whether you’re a brother/sister or a new member who just went through their first ceremony." That's may be true of your org, but it's not true of mine. In mine, our letters identify us as initiated brothers. Again, you have to remember that the idea that "new members" are equal to initiated members in most every way except having gone through initiation is common in the NPC now, but it is not common outside the NPC.

Also, I can assure you that my letters mean a great deal to me, and much more than "in theory" or as "letters on a page." My letters do not represent an open motto as is the case in some orgs. (Though take a look at Fiji, where the letters do represent an open motto and yet there are very strict guidelines on how the letters can be displayed.) We do not know what they mean until initiation. I'm not saying that your letters don't mean a great deal to you, but the idea that the letters "simply identify" us as part of one organization rather than another is completely foreign to our understanding of our letters. In fact, we would stress exactly the opposite -- that our letters don't just identify the group we belong to but signify something much deeper.

We do not make probationary members feel like outsiders by not allowing them to wear our letters, but we also do not act like they are brothers yet when they are not. It's fine by me that your sorority allows its new members to wear letters, but it is pretty presumptuous of you to assume that anyone who does things differently is wrong.

[knight_shadow]

^^^ Great post.

[blkwebman1919]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

You're speaking from the perspective of being a member of your organization, and that's fine as far as your organization goes. But you're new here. If there's one lesson to be learned above all others at GC, it's that all GLOs, despite their many similarities, are different. What may be true of your organization is not necessarily true of other orgs.

Two examples: You say, "But your letters define you as a member of the organization, whether you’re a brother/sister or a new member who just went through their first ceremony." That's may be true of your org, but it's not true of mine. In mine, our letters identify us as initiated brothers. Again, you have to remember that the idea that "new members" are equal to initiated members in most every way except having gone through initiation is common in the NPC now, but it is not common outside the NPC.

Also, I can assure you that my letters mean a great deal to me, and much more than "in theory" or as "letters on a page." My letters do not represent an open motto as is the case in some orgs. (Though take a look at Fiji, where the letters do represent an open motto and yet there are very strict guidelines on how the letters can be displayed.) We do not know what they mean until initiation. I'm not saying that your letters don't mean a great deal to you, but the idea that the letters "simply identify" us as part of one organization rather than another is completely foreign to our understanding of our letters. In fact, we would stress exactly the opposite -- that our letters don't just identify the group we belong to but signify something much deeper.

We do not make probationary members feel like outsiders by not allowing them to wear our letters, but we also do not act like they are brothers yet when they are not. It's fine by me that your sorority allows its new members to wear letters, but it is pretty presumptuous of you to assume that anyone who does things differently is wrong.

Well said!!!!!

[ASTalumna06]

I never said that my organization is the same as all the rest. breathesgelatin had said that they heard most NPC chapters allow new members to wear letters and not crests, and was apparently confused by this. She wanted evidence of it. She asked what the difference would be in not allowing the new members to wear the crest, but allowing them to wear letters. So I attempted, without any written evidence, to explain that based on my organizations rules, policies, and procedures.

And when I say that your letters identify you as part of an organization… that’s to say… the Greek letters are just that… letters. When you create an Greek organization, you put together 2 or 3 of those letters, and they mean very little when there’s nothing to back them up. Now, clearly a hundred years of history, at least in AST’s case, gives more meaning to those 3 letters. But to someone who isn’t part of my organization, even other Greeks, it’s essentially meaningless.

And in agreeing with 33girl, similar to ASA, we have an open motto that we expect our new members to embrace. I never said that every org has one and that’s what their letters stand for.

But like other orgs, we have meanings to our letters that we learn after initiation, but we feel that our new members reflect the sorority as much as initiated members do, and therefore, can wear letters. It's AST’s view that when you go through your first ceremony to become a new member, you’re a part of the sisterhood, and that entitles you to wear them. This is what we do to begin to integrate our new members into our organization. And when they're intiated, like I said, they can also wear the crest.

Everyone talks about their own organizations on here. Is this suddenly not allowed?

[SWTXBelle]

We all love to talk about our orgs. Just understand that if you do so in the context of a continuing discussion of many GLOs your comments may in turn be commented on - and try not to take things personally.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I never said that my organization is the same as all the rest. breathesgelatin had said that they heard most NPC chapters allow new members to wear letters and not crests, and was apparently confused by this. She wanted evidence of it. She asked what the difference would be in not allowing the new members to wear the crest, but allowing them to wear letters. So I attempted, without any written evidence, to explain that based on my organizations rules, policies, and procedures.

And in agreeing with 33girl, similar to ASA, we have an open motto that we expect our new members to embrace. I never said that every org has one and that’s what their letters stand for.

But like other orgs, we have meanings to our letters that we learn after initiation, but we feel that our new members reflect the sorority as much as initiated members do, and therefore, can wear letters. It's AST’s view that when you go through your first ceremony to become a new member, you’re a part of the sisterhood, and that entitles you to wear them. This is what we do to begin to integrate our new members into our organization. And when they're intiated, like I said, they can also wear the crest.

Everyone talks about their own organizations on here. Is this suddenly not allowed?

You missed the point. We weren't trying to tell you not to talk about your organization. The issue is that you're coming off as a "If you don't do it the way my sorority does it, it's WRONG!" kind of person.

And when I say that your letters identify you as part of an organization… that’s to say… the Greek letters are just that… letters. When you create an Greek organization, you put together 2 or 3 of those letters, and they mean very little when there’s nothing to back them up. Now, clearly a hundred years of history, at least in AST’s case, gives more meaning to those 3 letters.

Again, maybe that's the way YOUR sorority's letters were chosen, but you are not the official rep of Greek life. This may not be the case for everyone.

But to someone who isn’t part of my organization, even other Greeks, it’s essentially meaningless.

So if I decided to walk around wearing AST letters, would that be OK? Since I'm someone who's not part of your organization?

[ASTalumna06]

Well, sorry if that's how I came off. Not my intention at all.

And you're missing my point about the actual letters, and choosing them, and needing history to make them important... so I'm not going to attempt to explain that further

And by saying that my letters are "meaningless" to other people, is to say that they don't know anything about my organization. My letters mean little to you because you're not part of my organization. Just like yours mean little to me. Do I understand that your letters are important to you and that they mean something, yes. Because I'm part of a Greek organization I understand that. But I couldn't tell you one thing about your organization, so when I look at them, all they are is printing on a shirt. And that's not insulting your organization, that's simply your take on why a new member can't wear letters.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I never said that my organization is the same as all the rest. . . . And when I say that your letters identify you as part of an organization… that’s to say… the Greek letters are just that… letters. . . . Everyone talks about their own organizations on here. Is this suddenly not allowed?

Of course it's allowed. It's encouraged and welcome. But look at what you said:

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

But your letters define you as a member of the organization, whether you’re a brother/sister or a new member who just went through their first ceremony. The actual letters on a page mean very little.

If you had said something like, "our letters define us as members whether one is a sister or not," it would be clear you're talking about your organization. But when you say "your letters . . . whether you're a brother or not," I'm not going to interpret your comments as limited to AST. Likewise with this:

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Essentially, your letters simply identify you as part of one organization as opposed to another. They "name" your organization.

If you just mean your organization, then don't phrase it like you're talking about GLOs in general.

Then there was this:

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

The point of being in a brotherhood/sisterhood is to welcome new members, to make new friends, and to form life-long connections. It’s not to make people feel like outsiders by denying them something as basic as wearing the letters that associate them with that organization.

If you're talking about AST's approach to integrating new members, then why mention "the point of being in a brotherhood"?

This is why your post came across to me (and, I think, others) as a commentary on GLOs in general, and why it came across as suggesting that GLOs that do things differently from the way you describe are, for lack of a better word, "wrong."

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Well, sorry if that's how I came off. Not my intention at all.

And you're missing my point about the actual letters, and choosing them, and needing history to make them important... so I'm not going to attempt to explain that further

No, I get what you're trying to say. While this may have been the case with several organizations, it's not wise to assume that this is the way all organizations do it. Unless you're a founder yourself, you really don't know what went into choosing letters.

And by saying that my letters are "meaningless" to other people, is to say that they don't know anything about my organization. My letters mean little to you because you're not part of my organization. Just like yours mean little to me. Do I understand that your letters are important to you and that they mean something, yes. Because I'm part of a Greek organization I understand that. But I couldn't tell you one thing about your organization, so when I look at them, all they are is printing on a shirt. And that's not insulting your organization, that's simply your take on why a new member can't wear letters.

That's not where I was going with that. Like MysticCat's organization, wearing letters is something reserved for brothers of my organization. If you don't know the history of my organization and the meaning/significance of our symbols and ritual, you are not a brother. Therefore, you can't wear letters.

[pbear19]

For my local organization at the time I was in college (I don't know how much they may have changed policy in the time since I graduated - I keep in contact with them but not in regards to things like this) we were not allowed to wear or display letters until after initiation. Not because we hadn't earned them. But because until initiation we weren't considered members. Only members of the sorority could wear letters, and we were still considered to be, for lack of a better term, aspiring members. At least, that is how I interpreted it.

When the more PC terms came about, we struggled quite a bit with what to call our pledges, because we didn't like the term 'new member' as that didn't embody what our pledges were. They weren't new members, not yet. To us, new members were those sisters who had most recently been initiated, not those ladies who had most recently received bids.

At one point when it came up for discussion about wearing letters, we decided to allow Taus (pledges) to wear the recruitment shirt for the recruitment that they joined under. They participated in that recruitment, so it seemed fair to acknowledge their participation. I'm not sure how logical that may seem to others, but it worked for us.

I thought I would toss in the example as yet another reason to withhold letters until after initiation, one which has absolutely nothing to do with hazing.

[SweetHardt]

I am a Delta Zeta at Shepherd University. The sorority cannot say we are not allowed to wear letters , but out of respect we did not wear them until we were initiated. It can be considered hazing to tell members they are not alllowed the letters,

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by SweetHardt

I am a Delta Zeta at Shepherd University. The sorority cannot say we are not allowed to wear letters , but out of respect we did not wear them until we were initiated. It can be considered hazing to tell members they are not alllowed the letters,

not at you but at the broad definition of hazing.