SMU student found dead at SAE House

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

With respect, I (at least partially) disagree.

Having been a division officer at a chapter where there was a suicide and having to talk to grieving parents, brothers and other students (Greek and non) at a memorial service on the campus; and having been recommended to be an investigator for issues such as this (I declined), I feel pretty strongly that there are lessons to be learned and that the way that happens is through an ongoing dialog.

Well, I'll have to disagree, at least partially and also with respect.

Yes, this is a Risk Management - Hazing & etc. forum. (Maybe later someone can explain to me why a forum for people with college educations has "& Etc." in the title.) And yes, there are always lessons to be learned through ongoing dialog, regardless of the tragedy that gives rise to the dialogue.

But all parties have to be ready for the dialogue, which is often not the case immediately after an event such as this. And all parties have to understand what the dialogue is about -- is it about risk management or is it about personal responsibility when it comes to drugs and alcohol, or is it about both?

The purpose of this forum notwithstanding, I can understand completly why some close to the situation take offense when others with minimal knowledge of the facts offer what can come across as gratuitous, even patronizing, advice on risk management. (I'm not saying any advice or comments were intended to be patronizing, but I can see how they were received that way.) Meaningful dialogue requires that those participating in the dialogue all be adequately informed. Unlike the situation you describe of the suicide in the chapter in your division, no one here, except for Mac, is anywhere near "on the ground" with this situation.

That is why I think, with all respect, that the time for the time for risk management discussions must wait until everyone has all the facts. When all the facts are in hand, it just might turn out that Mac knows what he's been talking about and, despite the OP's placement of the thread in this forum, this tragic death is not really a risk management issue at all.

[macallan25]

Delt Alum, "respectfully" I strongly disagree with you. This thread shouldn't even be in this forum. For the 220394857 time......you don't know what happened....at all. You have continually posted in this thread like you do. There is absolutely no reason for you to keep making posts concerning Risk Management without any adequate information concerning what happened. You are trying to lecture people on a situation that you don't even know exists. I can make a 30 second phone call and find out far more than you have from a lengthy article. (I have, more than once, because I am good friends with many of those guys.)

For you to take this man's death, turn it around, and try to lecture us on RM policy, what is and isn't legal, what should happen to the chapter, and whether or not you think SAE is a good organization is extremely disrespectful and uncalled for. It is pretty much a slap in the face.

"Teachable Moment"?? Are you serious?

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by 33girl

It's a TEACHABLE MOMENT!!!










(and for anyone who doesn't know me well, I completely agree w/ Kevin and MysticCat that the lectures aren't needed at present time, especially over and over)

Exactly. A person has died. However, the moderators continue to give that person as much respect as a story. Are you serious? Lecture=person? A possible drug overdose has nothing to do with hazing or chapter problems or anything. How about next time a fraternity/sorority member goes missing we put that in here, because obviously it has something to do with the chapter.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Delt Alum, "respectfully" I strongly disagree with you. This thread shouldn't even be in this forum. For the 220394857 time......you don't know what happened....at all. You have continually posted in this thread like you do. There is absolutely no reason for you to keep making posts concerning Risk Management without any adequate information concerning what happened. You are trying to lecture people on a situation that you don't even know exists. I can make a 30 second phone call and find out far more than you have from a lengthy article. (I have, more than once, because I am good friends with many of those guys.)

For you to take this man's death, turn it around, and try to lecture us on RM policy, what is and isn't legal, what should happen to the chapter, and whether or not you think SAE is a good organization is extremely disrespectful and uncalled for. It is pretty much a slap in the face.

"Teachable Moment"?? Are you serious?

I was the one who started the thread. In hindsight, I should have put it in the Greek Life thread. If my putting it in Risk Management offends anyone at the SAE HQ or the members of the SMU chapter, I sincerely apologize. And just to be clear, there is no sarcasm at all in that statement.

Now, defending DeltAlum. His first post had a condolence message in it. He then went on to talk about a similar incident that he was aware of in his own fraternity and the consequences it involved. You seem to take issue with his phrase "in the house". If he was mistaken in this, why didn't you just point it out? Your own first post did not offer condolences to the chapter, but said: "Long night filled with lots of drinking and lots of blow. That's all you need to know." Please, calmly explain how saying that shows the respect for the dead young man, his family, and his chapter that you feel DA is not showing.

Instead, you came back with a statement that basically says that no matter what the SAE chapter at SMU does, your HQ would not close it. DA didn't argue with your statement at SAE. He just stated the facts in the Ohio State/Delta Tau Delta case and then agreed that he doesn't know the whole story about the what happened at SMU this weekend. After this is when you finally make the statement that the party was off campus. (And, hate to tell you, if it was a fraternity sponsered event and the under age member was there drinking, yes, the chapter can still be held responsible.)

Nowhere in his posts have I read him 'lecturing' anyone. He offered condolences, shared a similar situation that he was involved in and the consequences, made a couple of posts about responsibility, and basically been attacked. He deserves none of it.

If you have a problem with what someone posts and if it is 'appropriate' or not in this forum or thread, let Kevin know. He will take measures. If you don't feel like Kevin did the right thing, let John know. He is the ultimate ruler of GC.

And, I am truly sorry to have to add more of this bs to a thread that was genuinely started to inform people of a sad event at SAE SMU chapter.

[Elephant Walk]

I think he was referring more to Tom, not Delt.

It doesn't deserve to be in the Risk/Hazing section

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

I was the one who started the thread. In hindsight, I should have put it in the Greek Life thread. If my putting it in Risk Management offends anyone at the SAE HQ or the members of the SMU chapter, I sincerely apologize. And just to be clear, there is no sarcasm at all in that statement.

Now, defending DeltAlum. His first post had a condolence message in it. He then went on to talk about a similar incident that he was aware of in his own fraternity and the consequences it involved. You seem to take issue with his phrase "in the house". If he was mistaken in this, why didn't you just point it out? Your own first post did not offer condolences to the chapter, but said: "Long night filled with lots of drinking and lots of blow. That's all you need to know." Please, calmly explain how saying that shows the respect for the dead young man, his family, and his chapter that you feel DA is not showing.

Instead, you came back with a statement that basically says that no matter what the SAE chapter at SMU does, your HQ would not close it. DA didn't argue with your statement at SAE. He just stated the facts in the Ohio State/Delta Tau Delta case and then agreed that he doesn't know the whole story about the what happened at SMU this weekend. After this is when you finally make the statement that the party was off campus. (And, hate to tell you, if it was a fraternity sponsered event and the under age member was there drinking, yes, the chapter can still be held responsible.)

Nowhere in his posts have I read him 'lecturing' anyone. He offered condolences, shared a similar situation that he was involved in and the consequences, made a couple of posts about responsibility, and basically been attacked. He deserves none of it.

If you have a problem with what someone posts and if it is 'appropriate' or not in this forum or thread, let Kevin know. He will take measures. If you don't feel like Kevin did the right thing, let John know. He is the ultimate ruler of GC.

And, I am truly sorry to have to add more of this bs to a thread that was genuinely started to inform people of a sad event at SAE SMU chapter.

I offered my condolences in my very next post after my first....but that is besides the point. I have talked to many of the guys in the chapter......actually talked to a couple of them about an hour after he was found dead. They were devastated....I felt it would mean more to here it from me personally.....rather than announce it over a message board......but I still wrote something. Please, don't ask me to explain what I have and haven't done. Pretty sure I have expressed my feelings to the right people. Sorry if my first post was brutally honest......but that is pretty much what happened. Also, I made no mention of them not closing SAE at SMU until Delt responded with his Ohio State story.

Again, I don't know if he was at the SAE party or not. I talked to a bunch of Phi Delts that saw him out elsewhere....so I don't know. However, I am pretty sure the third party vender would be held responsible for serving him alcohol.....not the chapter. If they took the correct Risk Management procedures (which I know they do because I have been to several of their parties) then they shouldn't be held liable at all. They always have wrist bands to get in, wrist bands to get alcohol, and ways to designate who is underage.......this is all done by hired Security.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

I think he was referring more to Tom, not Delt.

Oh, my best guess is that he might have been talking about me.

That's OK. We don't agree on a number of things.

But here's the deal. Shortly after this forum was opened, I was the moderator (of this as well as Greek Life, Chit Chat and Delta Tau Delta) and John (the administrator) pretty much said to run it as I saw fit. I did that for quite a while.

Kevin is now the moderator, and I assume that John told him to run it as he sees fit as well.

Kevin is a good moderator and if he feels that something is in the wrong forum, he will move it where he thinks it belongs. I also think that if he feels I (or anyone else) am out of line, he will tell me/us -- or simply delete my/our posts.

This thread could have gone in either Greek Life or Risk Management -- but since it ended up in this one, I don't think it's out of line to explore the potential Risk Management issues involved.

Finally, when I say respectfully, I mean exactly that -- with respect. There's no reason I can think of to quote that word parenthetically.

Thanks LaneSig for the kind support.

[exlurker]

Update Wed. Dec. 20, 2006:

Several news sources in Texas are reporting that the medical examiner has determined the cause of Mr. Stiles' death was an overdose -- "a lethal combination of cocaine, ethynol and fentanyl," as one news piece put it:

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/myfox/pages/...Y&pageId=3.2.1

[macallan25]

The fentanyl is what killed him. I'm sure he took it when he got home to go to sleep. Pain Killers and blow don't mix.

[jon1856]

A few more reports with some more details on drug:
http://www.kvue.com/news/state/stori....2baf341b.html
By JASON TRAHAN / The Dallas Morning News


John Schreiber/The Daily Campus
The drug can be lethal if taken outside a prescription.

A rare but expensive drug sometimes absorbed through lollipops contributed to the death of a 20-year-old Southern Methodist University student in early December.
The Dallas County medical examiner has determined that Jacob Stiles overdosed on a toxic mixture of cocaine, alcohol and the synthetic opiate fentanyl.
The drug is used as a painkiller, but in any form fentanyl can be lethal if taken outside a prescription.
“People have died with needles in their arms,” said Kurt Kleinschmidt, an associate professor of emergency medicine at UT Southwestern Medical Center and toxicologist with the North Texas Poison Center.
“What’s really nasty about fentanyl (is) it’s a more potent narcotic than heroin or morphine - up to 100 times," Dr. Kleinschmidt said. "People can have overdoses and not know what they’ve gotten themselves into."
One expert said that nationally, more abusers prefer fentanyl patches over the lollipops. Some people apply more than one patch, while more hardcore users get a syringe and extract the drug right out of the patch.
Local, state and federal officials say that abuse of fentanyl is on the rise, but the facts it is expensive and hard to get have kept it from spreading more quickly.
Abuse is relatively rare, mostly because of the high cost. But about a month ago, a health insurance company alerted Dallas police to some suspiciously large prescription orders billed to their company for Actiq, which is fentanyl in a berry-flavored lozenge attached to a stick.
This form of the powerful synthetic opiate is designed to help manage pain of cancer patients who have trouble swallowing. But to abusers, the products are known as “perc-o-pops” or “lollipops,” and because of their potency they can plunge users into a stupor. Mix it with other drugs and the combination can be lethal, experts say.
Dallas police in the past few weeks arrested two workers at a doctor’s office for forging prescriptions for $40,000 of the lollipop form of fentanyl, known under the brand name Actiq.

http://www.dentonrc.com/sharedconten....2b395050.html

No matter just what happened, how it happened, or why it happened, Brother Stiles death is way too early in his life.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by macallan25

The fentanyl is what killed him. I'm sure he took it when he got home to go to sleep. Pain Killers and blow don't mix.

Well, the blow mixed with alcohol didn't help matters for sure.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by jon1856

No matter just what happened, how it happened, or why it happened, Brother Stiles death is way too early in his life.

Amen.

[Reality Check1]

It seems to me the Macallan25 believes he knows a great deal about many things, but it is more likely that he knows nothing about everything.

Your flippant attitude about the circumstances surrounding the Stiles death are completely disgusting. What type of real life knowledge do you have anyway? More than likely you aren't working and everything you have gotten in your life is because of the golden spoon that your parents gave to you.

The members of the SAE Fraternity at SMU should feel awful, because their culture contributed to this young man's death. Did they force him to do drugs? No, but don't tell me that they didn't make access to these things easier for the young man?

Macallan-it must be so easy for you to sit there and pop off time after time about everything. Take a look at yourself in the mirror. This whole incident goes in stark contrast to the brotherhood that a fraternity is supposed to represent.

[33girl]

Macallan is flippant at times, but now certainly isn't one of them. I suggest you reread the thread and pay attention to the context.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by Reality Check1

The members of the SAE Fraternity at SMU should feel awful, because their culture contributed to this young man's death. Did they force him to do drugs? No, but don't tell me that they didn't make access to these things easier for the young man?

We don't know this -- at least I don't.

My guess is that the college culture in general is as much or more of a factor as SAE's.

IF it is a chapter culture, though, I'll say that it should be closed.