University of Texas Supreme Court case

Low C Sharp · #1 10-11-2012, 05:40 PM

Did the argument change anyone's mind? How will the justices rule?

Also, does anyone know whether the plaintiff, Abigail Fisher, was in a sorority at LSU?

Munchkin03 · #2 10-11-2012, 08:45 PM

While I'm against the straight up quotas that were outlawed in Bakke vs. California and the point system that gave underrepresented minorities a huge advantage in Michigan, I think what Texas has is a good start.

Abigail Fisher was, by anyone's definition, a marginal if not downright mediocre student. She received an 1220 (540V/680M/Writing not considered) on her SAT , had a 3.59 GPA, and was 82 in a high school class of 674. As someone who played a less-than-conventional instrument and was a legacy, Miss Fisher had a "hook," but it apparently wasn't enough to make up for her lackluster academic performance. I mean, really. My niece did better on her SATs when she took them in MIDDLE SCHOOL, and ol girl sued one of the best public schools in the country? Didn't her guidance counselor steer her from UT-Austin based on that abortion of an academic record?

In the future, will a non-legacy sue due to the fact that, at most schools, the median legacy GPA is lower than the overall?

That said, it's anybody's guess how this will turn out. The Supreme Court is a bit different from how it was in 2003.

Regarding sorority membership at LSU, I highly doubt it. If she sued a school for not getting in...imagine what she'd have been like at Recruitment!

amIblue? · #3 10-11-2012, 09:38 PM

Her SAT scores are not mediocre. The national average in 2011 for Reading was 497 and Math is 514. Total average including the writing section is 1500. She was slightly above average in reading and well above average in Math.

I could care less about her and the case, but I wouldn't dismiss her scores as mediocre.

Munchkin03 · #4 10-11-2012, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amIblue?

Her SAT scores are not mediocre. The national average in 2011 for Reading was 497 and Math is 514. Total average including the writing section is 1500. She was slightly above average in reading and well above average in Math.

I could care less about her and the case, but I wouldn't dismiss her scores as mediocre.

She could be "average" on a national level, but she was applying for admission to one of the top public schools in the country and she wasn't in the top 10% of her class in order to receive guaranteed admission. That implies mediocre to me.

amIblue? · #5 10-11-2012, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

She could be "average" on a national level, but she was applying for admission to one of the top public schools in the country and she wasn't in the top 10% of her class in order to receive guaranteed admission. That implies mediocre to me.

Good to know that above average is mediocre to you. Are you one of those people who makes a 99 on a test and is mad over missing a point?

I didn't say they were outstanding, but they were well within the range of accepted students at Texas. I also didn't say a word about her grades or class standing because that is wildly varying from school to school and is in no way a consistent yardstick by which to judge student achievement.

momof4girls · #6 10-12-2012, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Abigail Fisher was, by anyone's definition, a marginal if not downright mediocre student. She received an 1220 (540V/680M/Writing not considered) on her SAT , had a 3.59 GPA, and was 82 in a high school class of 674. As someone who played a less-than-conventional instrument and was a legacy, Miss Fisher had a "hook," but it apparently wasn't enough to make up for her lackluster academic performance. I mean, really. My niece did better on her SATs when she took them in MIDDLE SCHOOL, and ol girl sued one of the best public schools in the country? Didn't her guidance counselor steer her from UT-Austin based on that abortion of an academic record?

Ms. Fisher had a 3.59 on a 4.0 scale. Pertinent information since many schools have scales above a 4.0. She was classified in the top 13% just outside that 10%.

Understand UT's policy is guaranteed admission for those in the top 10% with GPA not considered. GPA isn’t considered, because there are students from West and South Texas that are Valedictorians of their class and have overall GPA’s below 3.5 on a 4.0 scale.

Here are the UT admission statistics for Fall 2008.
https://sp.austin.utexas.edu/sites/ut/rpt/Documents/IMA_PUB_CDS_2008_AY.pdf
If you look at her class ranking and SAT score she is well within the average admission of students for that year. That makes her anything but mediocre. It also builds a strong case for the bases of her Supreme Court case. Her point, there were students in her school with lower class ranking, fewer extracurricular activities and they were admitted to the university. The difference she saw was the color of their skin. Of course, the unknown is the SAT/ACT score.

AOII Angel · #7 10-12-2012, 09:19 AM

I don't have much sympathy for her plight. If you are borderline, the school gets to put in a mix of borderline people who meet criteria of THEIR choosing since GPA and activities are only part of the story. Quit crying and apply to other law schools.

amIblue? · #8 10-12-2012, 09:39 AM

I don't have much sympathy for her either. Life isn't fair. The only way I would feel sympathetic would be if she had been completely denied post secondary education, which doesn't appear to be the case.

shirley1929 · #9 10-12-2012, 10:06 AM

I don't know this particular woman's story, so I won't speak to that directly. What I will say about UT's 10% rule is that it is FAR from perfect. Super-competitive private high school =/= to podunk public high school (in many instances, anyway). If you're not in the top 10% of either...you're likely not in. However, when the top 10% of your class are all National Merit Finalists (at SCPHS) who are headed to Ivys and you just want to go to UT or A&M to pay in-state tuition...you're kinda stuck.

I have heard of SEVERAL cases where someone was attending a SCPHS (or a really competitive public HS) and their parents allowed them to go live at their ranch (or with friends or whatever) for their senior year so that they could be in the top 10% of the podunk HS class. Do I think it's right? No, of course not. It's akin to going to Ole Miss, not getting the sorority you wanted, and transferring before school starts (in the old days, of course). It happens, though.

If you are smart (and I mean more than above average smart) it's hard to get into your state's flagship schools these days if you live in Texas. Yes, you can go to other state flagship schools (thus the reason for Alabama, Arkansas, LSU and Ole Miss being popular), but then you're paying OOS tuition...

knight_shadow · #10 10-12-2012, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Quit crying and apply to other law schools.

The top 10% thing only applies to undergraduate admission.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shirley1929

If you are smart (and I mean more than above average smart) it's hard to get into your state's flagship schools these days if you live in Texas. Yes, you can go to other state flagship schools (thus the reason for Alabama, Arkansas, LSU and Ole Miss being popular), but then you're paying OOS tuition...

Yep. This is why I'm happy that the Texans for Tier 1 thing is gaining traction.

shirley1929 · #11 10-12-2012, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Yep. This is why I'm happy that the Texans for Tier 1 thing is gaining traction.

AAAAAAAA-freaking-MEN!!!!!

MaggieXi · #12 10-12-2012, 10:21 AM

I think the argument has some merit, but I believe they chose the wrong plaintiff. She comes off whiney and entitiled in some interviews.

33girl · #13 10-12-2012, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shirley1929

I have heard of SEVERAL cases where someone was attending a SCPHS (or a really competitive public HS) and their parents allowed them to go live at their ranch (or with friends or whatever) for their senior year so that they could be in the top 10% of the podunk HS class. Do I think it's right? No, of course not. It's akin to going to Ole Miss, not getting the sorority you wanted, and transferring before school starts (in the old days, of course). It happens, though.

No different than transferring from Crappy Sports Team High to Prominent Football High so recruiters are more likely to come and look at you and sport you a scholarship. And we get that a LOT up here.

shirley1929 · #14 10-12-2012, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 33girl

No different than transferring from Crappy Sports Team High to Prominent Football High so recruiters are more likely to come and look at you and sport you a scholarship. And we get that a LOT up here.

Good example.

***Warning*** Story below contains exaggerations to make a point. I don't condone this line of thinking at all, I just want us to see the world view of a smart, prepared 18 year old.

I'll tie this all back into some of our (seemingly?) super-special-snowflake PNM's and what their mindset is as a result of all this:

Say that, for all your life your parents have told you that you were going to be an XYZ at UT (back then, not realizing that it would be problematic to tell you such a thing). Mama and Grandma were, so naturally you would be as well. You're a solid A/B student with a ton of extra-curriculars (because you've been over-programmed since birth) at Super Competitive Private/Public High School. You're a good kid, and you've been told that all your life.

You're sitting at 13% of your class of 200 (that makes you number 26...not shabby at all at SCPHS). With your college guidance counselor's blessing, you apply to UT.

You don't get in.

WHAT??? How could that be??? You're destined to go to UT, right?

Ok, regroup, this isn't the worst thing ever. You're a good/smart kid...You'll go to Bama/Ark/LSU/Ole Miss/wherever your backup is and pledge XYZ or other strong sorority. You've got recs...this should be cake. You're having to apply for more grant/scholarship money, but that's OK. It will all work out fine in the end.

It doesn't go well there either. You're crushed and wondering why you've worked so hard all these years just to be shut out of both the school you love and the sorority you're supposed to be destined for. And, you're now far from home and don't know many people.

You later find out (via friends at UT or whatever) about someone attending UT who isn't prepared at all to be there. They came from podunk high and while they were #8 in their class of 100...#'s 9-100 are not attending college and are working on cars. Or so they heard.

You want justice in the world. You're clearly smarter than that person (in your mind) and you DESERVE to be at UT. How dare they take YOUR spot???

This is all to say - life isn't perfect or fair, but when life has treated you fairly for SO long and suddenly it's given you a double whammy at 18 - it's a tough pill to swallow....

Kevin · #15 10-12-2012, 02:05 PM

The top 10% model probably does a better job at achieving real diversity than racial preferences or anything else I can think of off the top of my head. Especially considering the size of incoming classes. If what UT wants is diversity, rather than the absolute top academic performers, this seems like a good way to go about it.