University of Texas Supreme Court case

[33girl]

Originally Posted by adpimiz

This is just silliness. I hate when people use this argument because there are so many people from all ethnic backgrounds who come from disadvantaged homes who still prove to be successful. Affirmative action is not necessary in order to achieve diversity. There are many people from all cultures, races, and backgrounds who are able to get in on the merits.

College admissions should not be based on race or background. It should be based on qualifications.

Well, take this example. Susie and Jenny are both applying to Wawa U. Both of them have the same GPA. Susie's extracurriculars include Mu Alpha Theta, swim team, flag squad and National honor society. Jenny was in NHS, that's it. Obviously Susie is a better choice, right?

Well - what doesn't show on the application is that the average family at Susie's school makes 5 times more than the average family at Jenny's school, and Jenny's school doesn't even HAVE those first three things because the district barely has money to keep the school open.

If you get an assurance that college admissions people are going to take these things into account - that would be one thing - but I seriously doubt that is always the case.

[adpimiz]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Well, take this example. Susie and Jenny are both applying to Wawa U. Both of them have the same GPA. Susie's extracurriculars include Mu Alpha Theta, swim team, flag squad and National honor society. Jenny was in NHS, that's it. Obviously Susie is a better choice, right?

Well - what doesn't show on the application is that the average family at Susie's school makes 5 times more than the average family at Jenny's school, and Jenny's school doesn't even HAVE those first three things because the district barely has money to keep the school open.

If you get an assurance that college admissions people are going to take these things into account - that would be one thing - but I seriously doubt that is always the case.

Well, isn't that in part of what college essays are for?

I went to a very small high school that did not have much money, and had few extracurriculars to choose from. But, I highly doubt, that at any high school, NHS would be the only available extracurricular activity. Also, there are activities to do outside of school that do not involve having money - volunteering, church youth groups, etc.

I appreciate your example and I realize that this is a problem, but I do not and will not ever believe that affirmative action is a successful solution.

[shirley1929]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Well, take this example. Susie and Jenny are both applying to Wawa U. Both of them have the same GPA. Susie's extracurriculars include Mu Alpha Theta, swim team, flag squad and National honor society. Jenny was in NHS, that's it. Obviously Susie is a better choice, right?

Well - what doesn't show on the application is that the average family at Susie's school makes 5 times more than the average family at Jenny's school, and Jenny's school doesn't even HAVE those first three things because the district barely has money to keep the school open.

If you get an assurance that college admissions people are going to take these things into account - that would be one thing - but I seriously doubt that is always the case.

I totally get and agree with what you're saying. However, (re: the bolded) keep in mind that Texas is a Robin Hood state...Susie's district has sent MILLIONS to Jenny's to keep the scales closer to balanced. Although Susie's parents pay outrageous property taxes, 50% of that leaves their district - POOF - to go to Jenny's.

Not saying they're balanced...just saying they're not as far off as you're making it seem.

[GeorgiaGreek]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Jenny's school doesn't even HAVE those first three things because the district barely has money to keep the school open.

Both admissions officers and college counselors have indicated that the availability of classes and programs at your school is considered. Example: Big Rich High School has an IB program, 17 AP classes to choose from, and 8 sports teams. Small Rural High School has only 4 AP classes to choose from, and one boys' sport and one girls' sport each season.

Tim from Big School may have taken 5 AP classes and played football and soccer, but Johnny from Small School who took 4 AP classes and only played basketball might be considered equal or even at an advantage based on these aspects. It's not just about the the opportunities you're given, it's about the ones you take. Big state schools are especially aware of this when they have to compare applicants from different levels of opportunity.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by adpimiz

I appreciate your example and I realize that this is a problem, but I do not and will not ever believe that affirmative action is a successful solution.

At least you're up-front about having a closed mind on the subject.

I'm not saying you're wrong about affirmative action in general or about this case. (I'm not saying you're right, either.) But I will say that I think that unwillingness to consider the possibility that one might be wrong is rarely a good way to approach things.

[adpimiz]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

At least you're up-front about having a closed mind on the subject.

I'm not saying you're wrong about affirmative action in general or about this case. (I'm not saying you're right, either.) But I will say that I think that unwillingness to consider the possibility that one might be wrong is rarely a good way to approach things.

I respect your point, but I don't think that refusing to admit applicants to college based solely on race is a bad thing.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by adpimiz

I respect your point, but I don't think that refusing to admit applicants to college based solely on race is a bad thing.

Has anybody ever suggested admitting applicants to college solely on the basis of race?

[adpimiz]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Has anybody ever suggested admitting applicants to college solely on the basis of race?

I stand corrected, but I firmly believe that race/ethnicity should not be a deciding factor at all.

What I do not believe in is this:
Two students have the exact same GPA, went to the equally difficult high schools, both played two sports and were on National Honor Society and were class president. The minority student gets accepted simply for being a minority.

OR:
One student had a 4.0, was class president, played three varsity sports, was on NHS, etc.
One student had a 3.5 and played one sport.

However, the student with the 3.5 was a minority, so they let that student in over the student with a 4.0 who was clearly more qualified. It happens more often than people think. I just don't see how anyone can see that as fair.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by adpimiz

What I do not believe in is this:
Two students have the exact same GPA, went to the equally difficult high schools, both played two sports and were on National Honor Society and were class president. The minority student gets accepted simply for being a minority.

Or because s/he wrote a better essay.
Or because his/her guidance counselor(s) gave better recommendations.
Or because s/he had a better in-person interview.
Or...

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by adpimiz

However, the student with the 3.5 was a minority, so they let that student in over the student with a 4.0 who was clearly more qualified.

The problem here is the phrase "more qualified". Is an athlete "more qualified" than a non-athlete? Is an in-state student "more qualified" than an out-of-state student? If we give admissions professionals the right to decide who best makes up their campus community in these situations, we can't suddenly decide they don't know what they are doing when it comes to race, gender, physical limitations, etc.

[adpimiz]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaGreek

Both admissions officers and college counselors have indicated that the availability of classes and programs at your school is considered. Example: Big Rich High School has an IB program, 17 AP classes to choose from, and 8 sports teams. Small Rural High School has only 4 AP classes to choose from, and one boys' sport and one girls' sport each season.

Tim from Big School may have taken 5 AP classes and played football and soccer, but Johnny from Small School who took 4 AP classes and only played basketball might be considered equal or even at an advantage based on these aspects. It's not just about the the opportunities you're given, it's about the ones you take. Big state schools are especially aware of this when they have to compare applicants from different levels of opportunity.

I've definitely heard that being from a rural area can work to your advantage. And, as I've said before, there are many things to get involved in outside of school, if your high school does not have many extra-curriculars.