AL Teen Missing in Aruba

[ThetaDancer]

Did anyone watch the special on 20/20 last night? They played the tapes of Joran van der Sloot basically confessing to his friend and it was extremely disturbing. He showed no remorse and seemed to think of himself as a "victim" almost.

[ZTAngel]

Originally Posted by SigKapAngel767

Ah. Elaborate, please and thank you.

Same thing that Scott Peterson has. The person is so focused on themselves that they show no feelings or empathy towards the people around them.

[SigKapAngel767]

Gotcha. Very sad. I know people that are actually diagnosed with this. It's hard on everyone around them.

[Scandia]

If you are out with someone who falls unconscious because of alcohol poisoning (or anything else), the normal thing to do would be to seek medical help, even if you were afraid it was too late.

You wouldn't assume the person was dead and dump the body out at sea and then repeated lie about what happened, would you

Of course not. I would have called 911 (or whatever the emergency number is) frantically and summoned help quickly.

The date rape drug is a possibility that I had not thought of- but just as likely. I read in some accounts that Van der Sloot had had sex with Holloway and then she began shaking and died so he panicked.

He is still wrong. He still did wrong. He still needs to pay the consequences.

[srmom]

He is still wrong. He still did wrong. He still needs to pay the consequences.

Yes, he does, but I don't know if the Aruban authorities will, or can, do anything (they have kind of seemed like the Keystone Kops). But, I watched the 20/20 show last night, and it definitely seemed as if he was "unbeardening" to that guy - no way that he was lying like his lawyer is saying.

Natalee's mom said that she isn't really caring about the prosecution by the justice system anymore, that she feels peace knowing the truth, and that it was closure for her. She also said that even if he is not prosecuted, he is going to be living in hell knowing that EVERYONE knows he was involved and how cold and callous he is. He will have to bear that for life.

When they interviewed people in Holland, after they watched the Dutch program, they all said that they believed he's guilty as hell. Try getting a job, or making more than the few friends he may have. He's a worldwide pariah now - that is pretty good punishment even if they don't prosecute.

[honeychile]

It's funny, I just keep thinking that, had she not met up with Joran van der Sloot and his hopefully co-defendents, Natalee Holloway might have been on GreekChat, gone through recruitment, and would be a sister to many of the women here.

Yet I congratulate her mother for being able to find peace. May Natalee also know it, wherever she is.

[Scandia]

How can he even sleep at night?

And yes, I do think that Natalee Holloway would have been an asset to any NPC sorority or any other GLO of her choice. From the way the press described her, she seemed like a kind and sweet girl who was very friendly and enjoyed serving others. Not a troublemaker at all.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Scandia

The date rape drug is a possibility that I had not thought of- but just as likely. I read in some accounts that Van der Sloot had had sex with Holloway and then she began shaking and died so he panicked.

My understanding is that the FBI concluded that she had been drinking heavily and had taken GHB before van der Sloot arrived on the scene.

No question that the guy's a scumball. But unless the standards under Dutch law are significantly different from those under American law, I'll be very surprised if they can convict him on homicide.

[SATX*APhi]

Originally Posted by SOPi_Jawbreaker

On another message board I frequent, someone was speculating that maybe he had drugged her and raped her. And then he dumped her into the water to cover his tracks (either she was alive and he dumped her into the water so she couldn't press charges, or she had died or was unwakeable from the date rape drugs and he panicked and dumped her into the water). I haven't really been following the case so I don't know how plausible this theory would be.

Exactly my thoughts.

I don't think her murdered her, per se, but I do think he drugged her and she passed out. Based on his supposed confession tapes on 20/20 last night: If he hadn't done anything wrong then why was he afraid to call 911 after she went into convulsions? Why would he need to dump her out at sea?

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Scandia

He is still wrong. He still did wrong. He still needs to pay the consequences.

I do not like green eggs and ham.

I do not like them, Sam I Am.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

My understanding is that the FBI concluded that she had been drinking heavily and had taken GHB before van der Sloot arrived on the scene.

Exactly - and note that GHB is not "date rape drug" in a strict sense (in that it isn't a benzo/hypnotic like rohypnol or other drugs with, essentially, purely nefarious use), although there may be isolated incidences of it being used for that purpose.

It's at least as likely that she took one or more drugs of her own volition and died as a result of their interaction - including if cocaine was involved, as currently hypothesized, because that can introduce a series of wildcard interactions.

The Van der Sloot kid's still a monster douche, but most of the posts here really seem to ignore the facts of what the American kids were doing that night.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Exactly - and note that GHB is not "date rape drug" in a strict sense (in that it isn't a benzo/hypnotic like rohypnol or other drugs with, essentially, purely nefarious use), although there may be isolated incidences of it being used for that purpose.

It's at least as likely that she took one or more drugs of her own volition and died as a result of their interaction - including if cocaine was involved, as currently hypothesized, because that can introduce a series of wildcard interactions.

The Van der Sloot kid's still a monster douche, but most of the posts here really seem to ignore the facts of what the American kids were doing that night.

What were they doing?
Breaking curfew and drinking?
Yes, that part in 20/20 was stupid. As stupid as some of the other activities we have seen posted in RM thread here in GC.
But just how can what they were doing have any kind of comparison to either raping/killing someone or just covering up a death?

I was just down in Aruba (right before this came up again) and everyone was just down right nice. While we did go to several local restaurants, we did not go to any of the bars. We are a bit older and just do not drink.
However, we were in downtown a few times and never felt threated at all at night.
And GHP has been used as a date rape drug; was just part of a story about Rodger Clemens trainer.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by jon1856

What were they doing?
Breaking curfew and drinking?
Yes, that part in 20/20 was stupid. As stupid as some of the other activities we have seen posted in RM thread here in GC.
But just how can what they were doing have any kind of comparison to either raping/killing someone or just covering up a death?

Jon -

At no point did I make an explicit or implicit comparison - I don't think there is any need for or point in comparing the actions of the deceased with the actions of the living. Besides this, I don't have any basis for such a comparison even if I wanted to make it - that's actually my main point, and where I think this thread gets awkward.

Additionally, I'm not blaming the victim here in any way - I think that's a completely useless exercise as well.

My point here is that, for example, you can throw around the term "rape" but we don't know whether they had any non-consensual sex (we don't even know a true intoxication level to use that definition of rape), and it seems pretty silly and worthless as a point of discussion . . . and many posters have made conjecture as to what 'happened,' on a lonely beach in Aruba where no one was actually present, without any real basis for this conjecture, and while ignoring the actions before any contact with the Aruban derelicts.

Maybe she was drugged - maybe she drugged herself. The two seem at least equally likely, and both really serve little point in this discussion.

Originally Posted by jon1856

I was just down in Aruba (right before this came up again) and everyone was just down right nice. While we did go to several local restaurants, we did not go to any of the bars. We are a bit older and just do not drink.
However, we were in downtown a few times and never felt threated at all at night.

I'm not sure why you posted this, but congrats on the great vacation!

Originally Posted by jon1856

And GHP has been used as a date rape drug; was just part of a story about Rodger Clemens trainer.

I noted that it has been "used" as such in my post, Jon.

The overwhelming majority of GHB use is recreational, and acquaintance (or other) rapes do happen while a person is intoxicated on the drug (just like alcohol) - it can also be used for nefarious purposes, but has a much stronger history of recreational use than rohypnol or other drugs that are, quite literally, "date rape drugs" in that this is their primary use (this is what "strict sense" means). Media portrayals have given GHB and Ketamine, among others, this label, and it may or may not be fair, but it isn't really necessary to jump to this conclusion in this case, especially in relation to what I mentioned earlier about a total lack of connection with "rape" (and the fact that it was taken of their own volition). These drugs are dangerous in their own right, even above and beyond a risk of rape or sexual assault - it is borderline irresponsible to cast them in a specious light for that reason, at least in my mind.

Btw - remember the context of why GHB was included in the Clemens story? Well, Radomski sold it, too - one reason: weightlifters use it to help cycling on and off certain regimens, sometimes including steroids (supposedly it increases HGH production; it's never been proven, and the connection is tenuous at best). It's banned by WADA and the IOC for that reason.

Once again, its use is not consistent with calling it a "date rape drug" and doing so only clouds this discussion further with conjecture and useless pandering to the basest level.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Jon -

At no point did I make an explicit or implicit comparison - I don't think there is any need for or point in comparing the actions of the deceased with the actions of the living. Besides this, I don't have any basis for such a comparison even if I wanted to make it - that's actually my main point, and where I think this thread gets awkward.

Additionally, I'm not blaming the victim here in any way - I think that's a completely useless exercise as well.

My point here is that, for example, you can throw around the term "rape" but we don't know whether they had any non-consensual sex (we don't even know a true intoxication level to use that definition of rape), and it seems pretty silly and worthless as a point of discussion . . . and many posters have made conjecture as to what 'happened,' on a lonely beach in Aruba where no one was actually present, without any real basis for this conjecture, and while ignoring the actions before any contact with the Aruban derelicts.

Maybe she was drugged - maybe she drugged herself. The two seem at least equally likely, and both really serve little point in this discussion.



I'm not sure why you posted this, but congrats on the great vacation!



I noted that it has been "used" as such in my post, Jon.

The overwhelming majority of GHB use is recreational, and acquaintance (or other) rapes do happen while a person is intoxicated on the drug (just like alcohol) - it can also be used for nefarious purposes, but has a much stronger history of recreational use than rohypnol or other drugs that are, quite literally, "date rape drugs" in that this is their primary use (this is what "strict sense" means). Media portrayals have given GHB and Ketamine, among others, this label, and it may or may not be fair, but it isn't really necessary to jump to this conclusion in this case, especially in relation to what I mentioned earlier about a total lack of connection with "rape" (and the fact that it was taken of their own volition). These drugs are dangerous in their own right, even above and beyond a risk of rape or sexual assault - it is borderline irresponsible to cast them in a specious light for that reason, at least in my mind.

Btw - remember the context of why GHB was included in the Clemens story? Well, Radomski sold it, too - one reason: weightlifters use it to help cycling on and off certain regimens, sometimes including steroids (supposedly it increases HGH production; it's never been proven, and the connection is tenuous at best). It's banned by WADA and the IOC for that reason.

Once again, its use is not consistent with calling it a "date rape drug" and doing so only clouds this discussion further with conjecture and useless pandering to the basest level.

Seem as if we are on same page; perhaps just different lines.

BTB Clemens trainer was suspected of giving it to a woman while in a team hotel.

[Educatingblue]

Originally Posted by SOPi_Jawbreaker

On another message board I frequent, someone was speculating that maybe he had drugged her and raped her. And then he dumped her into the water to cover his tracks (either she was alive and he dumped her into the water so she couldn't press charges, or she had died or was unwakeable from the date rape drugs and he panicked and dumped her into the water). I haven't really been following the case so I don't know how plausible this theory would be.

I don't think we will ever know if he drugged her or if she was a willing participant. I do find it quite interesting that we have not heard too much from her friends. You have to wonder what kind of friends would leave her (recent high school grad) on a beach, in a foreign country, with a strange guy they just met. Something must have clouded their judgment!

Drugs and alcohol could have definitely been a factor, but is possible jail time for drugs worth someone's life?!?!

Originally Posted by srmom

When they interviewed people in Holland, after they watched the Dutch program, they all said that they believed he's guilty as hell. Try getting a job, or making more than the few friends he may have. He's a worldwide pariah now - that is pretty good punishment even if they don't prosecute.

Exactly! I would never want to work with someone like that. What happens if there is an accident at work...is he going to hide your body in a nearby dumbpster...I mean really!!!