AL Teen Missing in Aruba

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Exactly - and note that GHB is not "date rape drug" in a strict sense (in that it isn't a benzo/hypnotic like rohypnol or other drugs with, essentially, purely nefarious use), although there may be isolated incidences of it being used for that purpose.

It's at least as likely that she took one or more drugs of her own volition and died as a result of their interaction - including if cocaine was involved, as currently hypothesized, because that can introduce a series of wildcard interactions.

The Van der Sloot kid's still a monster douche, but most of the posts here really seem to ignore the facts of what the American kids were doing that night.

What were they doing?
Breaking curfew and drinking?
Yes, that part in 20/20 was stupid. As stupid as some of the other activities we have seen posted in RM thread here in GC.
But just how can what they were doing have any kind of comparison to either raping/killing someone or just covering up a death?

I was just down in Aruba (right before this came up again) and everyone was just down right nice. While we did go to several local restaurants, we did not go to any of the bars. We are a bit older and just do not drink.
However, we were in downtown a few times and never felt threated at all at night.
And GHP has been used as a date rape drug; was just part of a story about Rodger Clemens trainer.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by jon1856

What were they doing?
Breaking curfew and drinking?
Yes, that part in 20/20 was stupid. As stupid as some of the other activities we have seen posted in RM thread here in GC.
But just how can what they were doing have any kind of comparison to either raping/killing someone or just covering up a death?

Jon -

At no point did I make an explicit or implicit comparison - I don't think there is any need for or point in comparing the actions of the deceased with the actions of the living. Besides this, I don't have any basis for such a comparison even if I wanted to make it - that's actually my main point, and where I think this thread gets awkward.

Additionally, I'm not blaming the victim here in any way - I think that's a completely useless exercise as well.

My point here is that, for example, you can throw around the term "rape" but we don't know whether they had any non-consensual sex (we don't even know a true intoxication level to use that definition of rape), and it seems pretty silly and worthless as a point of discussion . . . and many posters have made conjecture as to what 'happened,' on a lonely beach in Aruba where no one was actually present, without any real basis for this conjecture, and while ignoring the actions before any contact with the Aruban derelicts.

Maybe she was drugged - maybe she drugged herself. The two seem at least equally likely, and both really serve little point in this discussion.

Originally Posted by jon1856

I was just down in Aruba (right before this came up again) and everyone was just down right nice. While we did go to several local restaurants, we did not go to any of the bars. We are a bit older and just do not drink.
However, we were in downtown a few times and never felt threated at all at night.

I'm not sure why you posted this, but congrats on the great vacation!

Originally Posted by jon1856

And GHP has been used as a date rape drug; was just part of a story about Rodger Clemens trainer.

I noted that it has been "used" as such in my post, Jon.

The overwhelming majority of GHB use is recreational, and acquaintance (or other) rapes do happen while a person is intoxicated on the drug (just like alcohol) - it can also be used for nefarious purposes, but has a much stronger history of recreational use than rohypnol or other drugs that are, quite literally, "date rape drugs" in that this is their primary use (this is what "strict sense" means). Media portrayals have given GHB and Ketamine, among others, this label, and it may or may not be fair, but it isn't really necessary to jump to this conclusion in this case, especially in relation to what I mentioned earlier about a total lack of connection with "rape" (and the fact that it was taken of their own volition). These drugs are dangerous in their own right, even above and beyond a risk of rape or sexual assault - it is borderline irresponsible to cast them in a specious light for that reason, at least in my mind.

Btw - remember the context of why GHB was included in the Clemens story? Well, Radomski sold it, too - one reason: weightlifters use it to help cycling on and off certain regimens, sometimes including steroids (supposedly it increases HGH production; it's never been proven, and the connection is tenuous at best). It's banned by WADA and the IOC for that reason.

Once again, its use is not consistent with calling it a "date rape drug" and doing so only clouds this discussion further with conjecture and useless pandering to the basest level.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Jon -

At no point did I make an explicit or implicit comparison - I don't think there is any need for or point in comparing the actions of the deceased with the actions of the living. Besides this, I don't have any basis for such a comparison even if I wanted to make it - that's actually my main point, and where I think this thread gets awkward.

Additionally, I'm not blaming the victim here in any way - I think that's a completely useless exercise as well.

My point here is that, for example, you can throw around the term "rape" but we don't know whether they had any non-consensual sex (we don't even know a true intoxication level to use that definition of rape), and it seems pretty silly and worthless as a point of discussion . . . and many posters have made conjecture as to what 'happened,' on a lonely beach in Aruba where no one was actually present, without any real basis for this conjecture, and while ignoring the actions before any contact with the Aruban derelicts.

Maybe she was drugged - maybe she drugged herself. The two seem at least equally likely, and both really serve little point in this discussion.



I'm not sure why you posted this, but congrats on the great vacation!



I noted that it has been "used" as such in my post, Jon.

The overwhelming majority of GHB use is recreational, and acquaintance (or other) rapes do happen while a person is intoxicated on the drug (just like alcohol) - it can also be used for nefarious purposes, but has a much stronger history of recreational use than rohypnol or other drugs that are, quite literally, "date rape drugs" in that this is their primary use (this is what "strict sense" means). Media portrayals have given GHB and Ketamine, among others, this label, and it may or may not be fair, but it isn't really necessary to jump to this conclusion in this case, especially in relation to what I mentioned earlier about a total lack of connection with "rape" (and the fact that it was taken of their own volition). These drugs are dangerous in their own right, even above and beyond a risk of rape or sexual assault - it is borderline irresponsible to cast them in a specious light for that reason, at least in my mind.

Btw - remember the context of why GHB was included in the Clemens story? Well, Radomski sold it, too - one reason: weightlifters use it to help cycling on and off certain regimens, sometimes including steroids (supposedly it increases HGH production; it's never been proven, and the connection is tenuous at best). It's banned by WADA and the IOC for that reason.

Once again, its use is not consistent with calling it a "date rape drug" and doing so only clouds this discussion further with conjecture and useless pandering to the basest level.

Seem as if we are on same page; perhaps just different lines.

BTB Clemens trainer was suspected of giving it to a woman while in a team hotel.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by jon1856

Seem as if we are on same page; perhaps just different lines.

BTB Clemens trainer was suspected of giving it to a woman while in a team hotel.

Agreed - and forgot about that part w/ McNamee and the sex allegations in the pool, which is pretty bizarre.

[Tinia2]

Aruba police pursue new evidence in Holloway case


SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico - A new witness has come forward in the 2005 disappearance of American teenager Natalee Holloway in Aruba, and prosecutors said Tuesday they are seeking more evidence against the only remaining suspect.....
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27790594/

Tips renew hopes of solving Holloway case
NEW YORK (CNN) -- Authorities in Aruba say they're looking into new evidence that could lead to an arrest 3½ years after Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway disappeared on a senior class trip to the island.
Aruban police are investigating two new tips they hope will provide the corroborating evidence they need to make an arrest, lead prosecutor Hans Mos told CNN.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/18/...way/index.html


I found this, right after it was posted, while looking for different news story. I hope this time something does come out of it.