If Hazing is Wrong, what's a better alternative?

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by msl2008

that's one incident. so what would you say about best friends hooking up with bfs cuz we know that happens a lot. my whole point is it's hard to judge a person's personality regardless if you haze them or not. however, i just feel i guess safer knowing that he went thru a tough process that not everyone can go through. could he still not learn anything? of course. but at least he stuck it out and proved he had some toughness.

when the going gets tough, lots of people quit and get scared. i would want the people who can overcome this stuff and stick it out with me. i don't know, maybe i am comparing this too much to the military but i guess we could do a whole lot worse huh? at least by following the military we have a foundation with which to build and teach on and we don't alcohol haze or anything like that (only physical). but i guess it's too much to understand.

but honestly, you guys can't see anyway in which a pledging process based on basic training is good and would rather just do community service or study sessions etc? would you guys also say that your GLO brotherhood/sisterhood is stronger then the military brotherhood?

What the hell does "hooking up" have to do with brotherhood?

Are you even associated with the military?

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

That has not made me into a better brother. Living up to the ideals that my founders envisioned is what does that. Having casual interactions with my brothers has done it.

EXACTLY.

If you have been part of a Greek org and you think pledging is the most important part of it, you are missing the point of what your founders have started.

All you keep saying is:

Pledging should be like military training.

If you haven't been physically hazed, you have no sister/brotherhood.

You are not making any actual points.

And the fact that you don't seem to see the value in philanthropy and service as part of Greek life, leads me to seriously believe you are not Greek.

[msl2008]

i'm not saying org don't get caught. but with all the different chapters and stuff out there, i'd say probably 1/1000 get caught. and then remember that they got all the hotshot attorneys and rich alumni and insurance who make sure it's nothin more than a slap on the wrist. last couple stories i read where people died people got maybe $10k fine and a year jail time and a year probation? for having someone die i don't consider that too bad.

and serving popcorn at sporting events is often done by organizations for fundraising. my whole point is that all you're doing is spending time doing something but most of that time you're not even really interacting with your organization's members cuz you're busy serving the community or fundraising.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by msl2008

i'm not saying org don't get caught. but with all the different chapters and stuff out there, i'd say probably 1/1000 get caught. and then remember that they got all the hotshot attorneys and rich alumni and insurance who make sure it's nothin more than a slap on the wrist. last couple stories i read where people died people got maybe $10k fine and a year jail time and a year probation? for having someone die i don't consider that too bad.

and serving popcorn at sporting events is often done by organizations for fundraising. my whole point is that all you're doing is spending time doing something but most of that time you're not even really interacting with your organization's members cuz you're busy serving the community or fundraising.

1/1000? Can you back that up with any data? I don't know where you're getting your information from, but you're seriously mistaken.

Fundraising is not community service. My organization does actual service for the community. Those of us who value our organizations do real service. That does not mean that's ALL we do. There are 24 hours in a day. There's plenty of time to interact with other members.

I also don't think you're Greek. No one who is a college graduate and a GLO alum can be this dense.

[BadCat25]

I remember in HS reading All Quiet On The Western Front about this nice boy who voluntered for the German army in WWI and was subjected to brutal training which turned him into a pitiless killer and that was the reason he could survive in the trenches. But when he went into a real battle the officer who brutalized him turned out to be a coward

[msl2008]

haha....this dense? lol...just because i believe in something different then you you're saying i can't be a college graduate and a greek? i don't understand how you come up with that.

but yes i am greek and yes i am a college graduate.

and if you think i'm dense about this, you should see my stances on politics and especially our governments response to the economy right now.

[ASTalumna06]

Sorry, I'm back. Just one more point (as I'm not going to further argue what I already have, because it obviously won't make a difference). This was your original post. Take note of the bolded parts.

Originally Posted by msl2008

So since there are many news articles about hazing and everyone saying how hazing is wrong yada yada, I'm curious as to what anti-hazing people would do for a new member education program that would differentiate the greek system from another student organization besides the fact that you guys live together or hangout together and bs like that.

Now I am against certain parts of hazing ie doing anything blatantly stupid like binge drinking or paddling or hitting pledges. However, I do not see a problem with doing physical exercises ie situps/pushups/running etc or screaming/yelling at a pledge. I think that when under emotional and psychological stress, people can go above and beyond what they would under normal circumstances and thus can learn a great deal about themselves. If the pledge can't handle this type of thing, he/she is always free to drop/quit/leave whenever they choose. Greeks are not gangs. We do not beat you if you want to leave.

And while reading some anti-hazing sites, I can't help but wonder why people are so proud that they were showered with gifts throughout their pledgeship. Doesn't that basically mean that you didn't do anything and yet I guess you were so rich or famous or b/c of who your parents are the fraternity/sorority decided to treat you like royalty? Isn't that the problem with Americans these days? Everyone feels like they're entitled to stuff and no one wants to put in the good old fashioned hard work anymore?

Now obviously I think that when people die there is an obvious problem. However, out of the hundreds of news articles I've read and anti-hazing sites I've visited, I do not recall any that had someone dying b/c he/she was doing pushups/situps/running etc. They were all either drinking or being beaten to death.

I am not really here to argue with anyone. However, I would like to know some constructive thoughts as to why people believe hazing is wrong. And remember, I am NOT including binge drinking/paddling etc in my argument b/c I also agree those should not be in any pledge program.

I look forward to an interesting discussion and to all your inputs.

You wanted to know:
a.) What non-hazing groups do for new member programs
b.) What the problem is with having pledges perform physical tasks, being yelled at, etc.
c.) Some thoughts as to why people think hazing is wrong.

So when people gave you opinions addressing these questions, somewhere along the line you turned your question into this:

Originally Posted by msl2008

i thought it was pretty obvious that i wanted ideas b/c i want to reform pledging a little bit. try and make it less hazing as much as possible while still making it challenging enough so it's still exclusive.

Originally Posted by msl2008

i'm not saying org don't get caught. but with all the different chapters and stuff out there, i'd say probably 1/1000 get caught. and then remember that they got all the hotshot attorneys and rich alumni and insurance who make sure it's nothin more than a slap on the wrist. last couple stories i read where people died people got maybe $10k fine and a year jail time and a year probation? for having someone die i don't consider that too bad.

and serving popcorn at sporting events is often done by organizations for fundraising. my whole point is that all you're doing is spending time doing something but most of that time you're not even really interacting with your organization's members cuz you're busy serving the community or fundraising.

First of all, you say your organization has a slim chance of getting caught. Is that because you do all of your secret stuff in the basement of the house? Oh, sorry.. did I ruin everything? All it takes is for one pledge to be uncomfortable enough to call the school or your national organization and you'd be screwed.

But hey, if you don't mind paying $10,000 and serving a year in jail, keep it up.

And if you're not bonding during fundraisers and philanthropies, then clearly pledging/hazing did NOTHING for the closeness between you and your brothers. Unless you're hazed all throughout college, in which case, you MIGHT have an argument for your chapter being closer than others (but probably not).

[msl2008]

don't worry about me...because i'm an alum, i don't haze anyone and thus can't be put in jail or pay a fine. i just wanted to try and see if i could change my way of thinking by listening to the people on this board. as of now, i do think that my hybrid program of some physical stuff and some philanthropies/study sessions etc is the best way to go. as for people telling on us, well we've survived this long...and by the time we go away lots of things will be different in america anyway with the way this country is going. we got way more problems then college kids hazing other college kids. let's get the real criminals out there.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by msl2008

haha....this dense? lol...just because i believe in something different then you you're saying i can't be a college graduate and a greek? i don't understand how you come up with that.

but yes i am greek and yes i am a college graduate.

and if you think i'm dense about this, you should see my stances on politics and especially our governments response to the economy right now.

Yes, talking in circles, continually making faulty assumptions, and not backing up your "arguments" makes you dense.

Having an opinion is encouraged. Asking questions and disregarding the answers makes you seem childish.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by msl2008

don't worry about me...because i'm an alum, i don't haze anyone and thus can't be put in jail or pay a fine. i just wanted to try and see if i could change my way of thinking by listening to the people on this board. as of now, i do think that my hybrid program of some physical stuff and some philanthropies/study sessions etc is the best way to go. as for people telling on us, well we've survived this long...and by the time we go away lots of things will be different in america anyway with the way this country is going. we got way more problems then college kids hazing other college kids. let's get the real criminals out there.

You're an alum and you don't haze anyone anymore. But you encourage the current active members to continue with the same activities. Are you going to be the one bailing them out and visiting them in jail? Because I doubt it.

You don't think a hybrid program of physical stuff and productive philanthropies/study sessions would be helpful? So only pushups and yelling for not knowing the founders names or the ages of all their pledge brothers is the best way to go? Yea, that sounds right. College isn't about academics and building relationships with the surrounding community anyway.

You've survived this long, and that's great. But just a few weeks ago a thread was started here in which a chapter that had been on a campus for nearly 100 years was caught for hazing. Everyone always thinks that it can't happen to them.

And if you think that deaths due to hazing is a small problem, then I would really like to know what you would consider a "big" problem.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Are you going to be the one bailing them out and visiting them in jail?

He's only going to bail out the ones who can do 50 pushups.

The rest will be passed around the cell block.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

He's only going to bail out the ones who can do 50 pushups.

The rest will be passed around the cell block.

Haha. That sounds about right.

And mls2008, since you think your chapter is invincible, here's a story of a few girls that I know personally:

A couple years ago, this one chapter had a new member class. One of the new members came back to her room to find that it was trashed. From what I understand, this happened because this girl was a little slower at learning some of the sorority information. It turned out the reason was because her dad was in the hospital for a few weeks, and his chances of living were about 50/50. Fortunately he made it, but this girl was an emotional wreck and kept it to herself, not wanting to burden the rest of the chapter. Well... she gets back to her room, it's completely turned upside down. There's a note saying it was the sorority. She breaks down. She calls her mom to talk to her about it. Without her knowing, her mom calls the national organization. It turns out the chapter was unaware this happened, and only two sisters were actually involved with this incident, which they owned up to. The national organization told the chapter that they either lose their charter, or they remove these two girls from the chapter and strip their letters. They obviously chose the latter.

All it takes is one phone call for something to happen. Some people aren't afraid to report hazing incidents, and I commend them for that.

[msl2008]

astalumna, i don't understand your story. what does that have to do with pledging? you guys probably think i'm all heartless and stuff. trust me, it's not like all we do is yell at you and tell you to do pushups. that's just a means to an end. we also do philanthropies, study sessions, have chill nights or whatnot with the pledges to build brotherhood too. we just combine the two for a vigorous process. and i thought i mentioned multiple times that we ARE doing a hybrid program. i was just trying to figure out how people are totally against that and go to strict non hazing besides the fact that it's against the law. if no one dies and no one is beaten and harmed, i don't see why it's so dangerous. would we be having this conversation if no one died or was harmed besides having sore muscles?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

No one who is a college graduate and a GLO alum can be this dense.

Would that it were so.

Originally Posted by msl2008

haha...i found the last few posts quite interesting. first of all, you might not believe this but i'm actually one of the more rational ones. i rarely hazed people except to get a point across and most pledges thanked me after they crossed because they told me they understood the points i was making.

. . .

and for those of you who say earn your letters after you cross, i ask why you don't just give your letters out to everyone then? it's funny how you think my organization is messed up but we're actually proud of our letters. i see many fraternities let friends or gfs wear their letters all the time. great way of earning your letters huh? what a joke.

. . .

but if you guys have any GOOD ideas, i'm still open to them. but if all you want to do is insult me, well a public forum is a pretty ridiculous and childish place to do that. you guys have really proven how much you guys respect your orgs huh?

Not sure how disagreeing with you proves that those who disagree don't respect their own orgs. No logic there at all.

But, being proud of your letters, are you willing to tell us what fraternity you belong to?

(And I am noticing how you refer to "crossing.")

[Deltasig973]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

1/1000? Can you back that up with any data? I don't know where you're getting your information from, but you're seriously mistaken.

Fundraising is not community service. My organization does actual service for the community. Those of us who value our organizations do real service. That does not mean that's ALL we do. There are 24 hours in a day. There's plenty of time to interact with other members.

I also don't think you're Greek. No one who is a college graduate and a GLO alum can be this dense.

wow 1 out of 1000 thats pretty good. Funny cuz at my school there has been numerous issues with hazing and one time or another every chapter has experienced a problem with hazing. And im glad to say now my chapter does not haze in any possible way what so ever. Id say theres maybe 1 org who hasnt had a hazing problem at one time or another on my campus and theyre a colony. So im sure its a little more common than 1/1000. Its time to progress and not stay lost in the past.