Underage vs DUI; Emory's dilemma - Page 7

jon1856 · #91 09-19-2006, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macallan25

Yeah, you are right about the Sheriff/Chief of Police thing....I dunno what I was typing.

I never said I would treat an officer or public servant with disrespect, of course I wouldn't. Do I think, in my own experiences, that cops are tremendous assholes? Yeah.....especially in Austin and my hometown.

....I am going to take advantage of my resources though if it can get me out of trouble. I really have not ever been in a bad situation....but there have been a couple times where knowing people has helped out and helped others out.

LOL-Mac' I understand all to well just how brain and fingers do not work as a team some times

...no fear there.

A question for you as my path has never been crossed by any Texan peace officer:
How can it be that the street cop, patrol officer who is the power hungry asshole for doing his job while his/her Boss is not? Yes, that is a trick question that does not need to be answered. Perhaps the street officers have 'learned' to handle matters because of the situations that they are put in?

And I was, a few years ago, in a situation that by all rights I should have been cuffed and placed in jail and my car impounded. but following what I have posted above, got the matter worked out the next day with TPTB without all of that happening. And yes, the patrol officer did call his shift supervisor into the matter.

DeltAlum · #92 09-19-2006, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SydneyK

Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle... you learn something new every day.

The Night the Lights Went Out In Georgia
Vicki Lawrence
Words and Music by her husband, Bobby Russell

(peak Billboard position # 1 in 1973)

Who knew? (Other than AlphaFrog)

Well, I did. But I started my broadcasting career as a disc jockey, so that's hardly fair.

Tom Earp · #93 09-19-2006, 04:19 PM

I stand corrected about the search area of a vehicle.

An Officer can seach anything area within arms reach including the glove box if there is probale car stop incidental to an arrest.

The trunk cannot checked without permission. But if an insueing investigation and the car is to be towed, it is neccesary to inventory the trunk and will be opened by Officer.

In regard to the bus situation, the Officer must have probable cause to stop the bus for a violation.

Even when enters the bus to confront the driver, he must have probable cause to check out the occupants of the bus.

This is per a Police Officer who knows his law.

And yes, Emory has the right to close the bus if it is using College Money no matter how stupid it may be!

jon1856 · #94 09-19-2006, 07:50 PM

To continue Tom's efforts in getting this thread back on track, I did a very down and dirty seach and found these rather interesting sites from two very different POV's:
http://flyservers.registerfly.com/me...om/police.html

http://www.abanet.org/publiced/pract...icerights.html

http://www.legalzoom.com/articles/ar...icle14779.html

http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/legal_iss...high_court.htm

jon1856 · #95 09-20-2006, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macallan25

Yeah, you are right about the Sheriff/Chief of Police thing....I dunno what I was typing.

I never said I would treat an officer or public servant with disrespect, of course I wouldn't. Do I think, in my own experiences, that cops are tremendous assholes? Yeah.....especially in Austin and my hometown.

....I am going to take advantage of my resources though if it can get me out of trouble. I really have not ever been in a bad situation....but there have been a couple times where knowing people has helped out and helped others out.

Just found this story on my home page. Shows what can happen when one tries to throw ones weight around:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/20/ny...=1&oref=slogin
Police Official Again Rebuked for Altercation at a Rest Stop
By JONATHAN MILLER
Published: September 20, 2006
HACKENSACK, N.J., Sept. 19 — For Garry F. McCarthy, the nominee for Newark police director, the trouble began last year with a parking infraction at a rest stop on the Palisades Interstate Parkway. It spiraled into a wrangle — part wrestling match and part shouting match — that led to his arrest and handcuffing.
On Tuesday, a Superior Court judge here added another chapter in this tale of officer versus officer when he rejected Mr. McCarthy’s attempt to dismiss his conviction on the parking matter. He instead scolded Mr. McCarthy — a deputy police commissioner in New York City — with “extraordinarily poor judgment.”
In a stinging rebuke, the judge, Patrick J. Roma, in Superior Court in Bergen County, also wrote that Mr. McCarthy’s objective in confronting the officers was to “throw his weight around” and to try to win “special consideration” for his 18-year-old daughter, who had been given a ticket at the rest stop.
Neither Mr. McCarthy, 47, nor his lawyer returned calls for comment on Tuesday. But last week, outside the court here, Mr. McCarthy said: “I’m concerned about nothing. If you do nothing wrong, or unethical, you should not worry.”
Earlier this month, Mr. McCarthy was nominated by Mayor Cory Booker of Newark to become the next director of police there. Last week, Mr. McCarthy dismissed any concerns, saying, “It will not affect my job performance.”
In a statement, Mr. Booker said: “I stand firmly behind my decision to appoint Mr. Garry McCarthy as the police director. I have faith and confidence in McCarthy and his ability to effectively carry out the duties of his job.”
The incident, in February 2005, came after a night in which the McCarthy family had been to a restaurant in Manhattan and had been heading to their home in West Nyack, N.Y., with Mr. McCarthy and his wife in one car and their two daughters in another. The two teenage daughters pulled into a rest stop on the Palisades Interstate Parkway in New Jersey. After the police gave them a ticket for parking in a spot for the handicapped, one of the daughters called her father.
Mr. McCarthy headed straight for the rest stop, got out of his car and confronted the parkway police. A shouting match ensued between Mr. McCarthy and the officers. One officer handcuffed Mr. McCarthy, and another grabbed the 9 millimeter handgun from his waistband and put it on the passenger seat of the officers’ car. (Mr. McCarthy says the gun was thrown.)
The officers later said that they had smelled alcohol on his breath. Mr. McCarthy said he had had two glasses of wine.
As this was happening, the police said, Mr. McCarthy’s wife, Regina, began shouting obscenities, got out of her car and grabbed the gun in the officers’ car. She was wrestled to the ground by one of the officers and was eventually handcuffed.
In the end, Mr. McCarthy was charged with illegally obstructing traffic and his wife with “unreasonable noise.” In March, a judge in Hackensack found both guilty and ordered them each to pay a $200 fine for their offenses, plus a $30 court cost, which the couple appealed.
Mr. McCarthy had criticized the parkway police for their actions that night, telling The Star-Ledger earlier this month that he learned a lesson from that night on “how not to run a police agency.” When asked about that statement, Mr. McCarthy responded tersely: “It’s not what I believe. It’s a fact.”
Mr. McCarthy and his lawyer have accused the officers of lying about the case and producing identical incident reports. The chief of the parkway police was not available for comment on Tuesday.
But in his written opinion, Judge Roma dismissed Mr. McCarthy’s claims about the credibility of the officers, writing that “it appears clear to this Court that Mr. McCarthy’s sole purpose in confronting PIPC officers was to ‘throw his weight around’ and to obtain special consideration for a high ranking police official. In summary, he turned a garden variety parking ticket into a melee.”
The judge concluded that Mr. McCarthy had initiated the confrontation and that “Mr. McCarthy showed extraordinarily poor judgment in the situation.
“This matter could have been avoided, especially by someone who is expected to lead a law enforcement agency.”

macallan25 · #96 09-20-2006, 01:24 PM

When did I say anything bout throwing my weight around? I don't think yelling at a police officer, wrestling with him, and involving a handgun is even close to calling someone with some "pull" as a way to avoid getting in trouble.

jon1856 · #97 09-20-2006, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macallan25

When did I say anything bout throwing my weight around? I don't think yelling at a police officer, wrestling with him, and involving a handgun is even close to calling someone with some "pull" as a way to avoid getting in trouble.

Your making a call was throwing weight/connections around.

Your phone call caused someone to "throw their weight around".
Or rather as a result of your phone call, someone throw their weight around.

Thought of two other question for you:
1) Do you remember the “beat cop”/patrol officer that you dropped the dime on? It would not surprise me if he remembers you. And in a few years, he will have gone through a few promotions and will be a “boss”. What happens if he gets involve when you get pulled over again?

2) A few years from now, another 17, 19, or 21 year old driver gets pulled over and also gets a wave by because he too knows someone. He continues driving and has an accident that he walks away from. But two others are dead. Your wife, your child. How would you feel then about wave bys?

macallan25 · #98 09-20-2006, 04:01 PM

You are taking this way to seriously. Calm Down. Me making a phone call to an attorney, judge, county sheriff, etc. isn't the same as yelling at an officer and trying to beat him up. That story you posted has no relevance.

1.) What do you mean if he "gets involved" again? Great...he's still a cop, only a cop that got promoted to a different rank. Big deal. I don't think getting promoted through the ranks is going to give him anymore kind of "pull." Unless he magically becomes a well connected high-end figure in the city....which I highly doubt. To be honest, it won't really matter in a few years........while i'm in college, its nice to have people you can call to stay out of trouble.......however, when I am off on my own i'll take care of myself and take all the responsibility.

2.) I don't know what a "wave by" is. I'm not talking about getting out of DWI's, DUI's, etc. and just having the officer let me go. I figured you would be intelligent enough to realize that. Obviously if I get pulled over and i'm slobbering drunk, there isn't much I can do about it right then. But for routine traffic stops, PI's and other traffic misdemeanors....knowing people comes in handy.

Tom Earp · #99 09-20-2006, 04:45 PM

LOL, whether you did not slap a Officer in the face, it is still a slap in the face to have someone bring him into an office and give a ream job as it were.

No Officer likes that.

They do have ooh so long memories and pay backs can be even tougher if one screws up again.

Most will give a break if one is kind to them.

But, there are some departments who will have dicks who ride around, have badges and carry weapons. Then again, there are just dick departments.

Been there done it and did it!

Emory still screwed up in my estimation!

jon1856 · #**100** 09-20-2006, 08:02 PM

Tom;
I had a nice conversation tonight with a friend with over 20 years experience in Law Enforcement. They too have heard it, seen it, been there and done it. Told me point blank that if a superior officer tells a patrol officer to “stand down” or let a person go due to personal matters:
Senior/ Superior officer is in violation of SOP’s, laws et al.
It is then at the discretion of the patrol officer on how to handle: let them go or follow patrol guide. If they follow patrol guide, next few days could be rather interesting. If Senior Officer supports PO’s actions, nothing happens. If they do not support their own officer, then there could be a “war” involving unions, major politicians, and of course the media.

Also had a rather good laugh over why anyone would waste a call on “routine traffic stops, PI's and other traffic misdemeanors”.

But they also confirmed that 21 is 21 is 21. In other words, a person at 21 is fully responsible for their actions. Being in College or being financially supported by family is not any excuse or exemption to law.

I could always get a Federal option on this mater from a member of the Federal Circuit Appeals Court but just had dinner with them a few weeks ago and do not see any reason to call them on this. Perhaps next dinner.

macallan25 · #**101** 09-20-2006, 08:57 PM

Well, you have taken this to the ridiculous......

For MIPs, MIC, PI's, posession, DUI.......yeah its great to be connected with people that can keep you from getting a ticket, going to jail for a night, etc.etc. What else would I use it for? I'm sorry you "got a good laugh out of that." Maybe I should go rob a bank or shoot someone...would that be a better time to "make a call."

Who is "they"? I'm well aware that at 21 you are legally responsible for everything. I said that while I am in college.....i'll use whatever resources I can to alleviate situations if they come about. I actually think I wrote that twice. Try reading next time.

Sorry, but i'm not talking about a superior officer telling a patrolman to do something. I didn't say that at all. I thought that was clear. I'm mainly talking about attorneys and judges whom are very close family friends, have alot of pull and influence in the city, and can easily "take care" of tickets, fines, things going on records, etc. etc.

And what is this "option" that you would be getting from someone on the Federal Appeals Court??? I have no idea what you are talking about with this....but it really doesn't matter . What would you be calling him on?

jon1856 · #**102** 09-20-2006, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macallan25

Well, you have taken this to the ridiculous......

For MIPs, MIC, PI's, posession, DUI.......yeah its great to be connected with people that can keep you from getting a ticket, going to jail for a night, etc.etc. What else would I use it for? I'm sorry you "got a good laugh out of that." Maybe I should go rob a bank or shoot someone...would that be a better time to "make a call."

Who is "they"? I'm well aware that at 21 you are legally responsible for everything. I said that while I am in college.....i'll use whatever resources I can to alleviate situations if they come about. I actually think I wrote that twice. Try reading next time.

Sorry, but i'm not talking about a superior officer telling a patrolman to do something. I didn't say that at all. I thought that was clear. I'm mainly talking about attorneys and judges whom are very close family friends, have alot of pull and influence in the city, and can easily "take care" of tickets, fines, things going on records, etc. etc.

And what is this "option" that you would be getting from someone on the Federal Appeals Court??? I have no idea what you are talking about with this....but it really doesn't matter . What would you be calling him on?

IIRC you posted a comment about your County Sheriff-that is where my comment about a superior officer came from.
And "they" are just who I explained them to be. Read.
You posted that you have regular dinner and golf dates with your family contacts. We all do. Sometimes they are our peers.

And it now seems that rather than one call, which you posted as a true story, you seem to make many. Long story short-just when does a man make a stand for himself? When does a man learn that one should either take responcibility for their actions or change their actions?
You seem to believe that being in college is different that being anywhere else. That my be your POV but you are still 21 and an adult.

My comment about the Fed was just slightly tounge in cheek.

macallan25 · #**103** 09-21-2006, 01:35 AM

The Sheriff is a long time friend and was the president of the Sherriff's association of Texas a couple years ago. They really don't have much to do with the regular police department....

When did I say that I have made many calls? I don't think I did. I just stated those things as examples of a situation that could be taken care of with knowing the right people....it doesn't mean I have been involved in all of them.

Being in college IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than being anywhere else. Are you kidding me?? I don't really understand how one could disagree with this....at all. Explain to me how it is not different? Please do.

SydneyK · #**104** 09-21-2006, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macallan25

Being in college IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than being anywhere else. Are you kidding me?? I don't really understand how one could disagree with this....at all. Explain to me how it is not different? Please do.

I was hoping to keep from adding to the hijack, but I just can't keep biting my tongue...

Since you haven't provided an argument for why being in college prevents you from being accountable, I have to wonder what your logic is in the above quote. As far as I can tell, there is no logic there.

Why is being in college different from being a productive member of the community? The way I see it, college is the time when, in addition to developing academically, young adults learn how to maneuver within the real world. Part of this learning process involves accepting responsibility for wrong-doings. If, throughout your college career, your method of accepting such responsibility is simply to call daddy and get him to pull his strings, then how in the world are you going to know what to do once you get out on your own? Maybe spending the night in jail is what you need to learn your lesson. You'd think that a man as intelligent as your well-connected father is would recognize that. Unless of course, his daddy pulled strings to keep him out of (justified) "trouble".

I'm with jon1856 on this one. 21 is 21 is 21. It doesn't matter whether you're a 21 year old college student, a 21 year old high school dropout, a 21 year old business executive, or a 21 year old tobacco warehouse clerk. If you're 21 you're an adult. Being an adult means being accountable. Thus, since your age dictates that you are legally an adult, your actual station in life is irrelevant. You, and not your daddy, are accountable for your wrong-doings.

In an attempt to get this discussion back on topic, again, I think Emory had every right to pull the bus. Sure, I would've made a different decision (based on what information I have in this case), but that doesn't really matter. And, I still stand by my earlier claim that the title of this thread suggests a false dilemma. Just because Emory is no longer sponsoring a bus (due to fears that underage students will drink) does not mean that it is subjecting its students to DUI.

macallan25 · #**105** 09-21-2006, 02:42 PM

I never said it prevented me from being accountable. Find where I said this. I said its nice knowing people, while in college, who can help out if you get in trouble, keep you from going to jail, keep things from getting on your record.

If I screwed up bad enough, I can promise you its going to be all on me and i'll have to deal with it....but for minor things I really don't see the problem in taking advantage of who you know.

I realize that 21 is the legal age for being considered an adult. Thanks, that is I believe the 5th time i've heard that. However, I believe that while you are in college, it is completely different than being on your own in the normal business world. Most people I know, including me, are supported by their parents, get money from their parents, are still on their parent's insurance, etc. etc. etc. So yeah, I think there is a big difference all together.