kappa sigma at fgcu?

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by K∑_PZ_AEKΔB

Like I stated beforehand, policies and rules constantly change. It is only a matter of time and an agent to bring about the change. If humanity blindly and without question followed policies and rules set forth we would not be as advanced as we are today. Same concept applies here I believe...

"He who rejects change is the engineer of decay, for evolution not only is advantageous for its subjects but is essential for their survival."

So while those in opposition of change hold tight to the current policies on expansion, we will push for change for the benefit of all. In this case, the positive far outweighs the negative... some just choose not to open their eyes and see it though.

On the other hand, if we didn't follow any rules, it'd lead to anarchy. Even if the group successfully expands to the campus, there will be more rules that its members will have to adhere to. Would you encourage them to break those rules, too?

But thanks for the quote

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by K∑_PZ_AEKΔB

To bring this discussion back on track (Kappa Sigma at FGCU)

I propose this question to all of you, especially those that are in opposition of open expansion now. If a group of young men, tuition paying students of the university can:

Form a dues paying, nationally recognized interest group/colony of 1/3 the membership of the largest fraternity on campus. Also, have that group of men meet the checklist per requested by their national headquarters (GPA, community service hours per man, fundraising dollars per man, campus involvement, by-laws, code of conduct, etc...).

Should they not be voted upon favorably for recognition to IFC? Surely they would bring about beneficial competition... I assure you this is no easy task. Whomever group completes this task is more than capable of adding strength to the IFC and to Greek Life.

I know my own current colony and future Rho Zeta Chapter of Kappa Sigma will, when we do get recognized at FGCU, at least double in size in quality men and perfect our operations - thus increasing the efforts across the board for all chapters on campus. And trust me, the community will reap the benefits of such policy change.

Generally speaking, I agree with the idea of free association (open expansion) as set forth by the NIC. However, that applies only to NIC member organizations.

Regardless, there is no oversight or governance by the NIC over a campus IFC similar to what the NPC and the NPHC have with their campus councils. And most campus IFCs include non NIC members such as Kappa Sigma and Phi Delta Theta as well as other local, regional and inter/national fraternities as applicable. As such, the rules and guidelines set forth by the local campus IFC are the ones to be followed by those seeking to be a member of the IFC. In other words, to join a campus IFC, a fraternity (NIC or not) needs to "play by their rules".

In the meantime, I wish the future Rho Zeta Chapter of Kappa Sigma all the best. Hopefully the issues about recognition will be resolved soon to the satisfaction of both Kappa Sigma and FGCU.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Lol I love how the rules only apply to them when it is convenient. They left NIC, because they didn't agree with it's rules and policies. Now they are trying to use same rules and policies to their advantage.

[MysticCat]

I'm glad I'm having a slow day.

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

MysticCat: Not sure what you've been doing for the last 20 years, but you are confusing your constitutional law. First Amendment rights include the right to freely associate. Equal protection, on the other hand, is a Fourteenth Amendment matter. Toe separate issues, both being violated by the same act.

I'm well aware they're two seperate issues. It was your long post that seemed to confuse and conflate them.

As for the First Amendment, I wasn't confusing anything. Did you miss that when I gave the list of rights, I specifically pput them in the context of "expressive association"? I was merely quoting SCOTUS as to what that means:

Our decisions have referred to constitutionally protected "freedom of association" in two distinct senses. In one line of decisions, the Court has concluded that choices to enter into and maintain certain intimate human relationships must be secured against undue intrusion by the State because of the role of such relationships in safeguarding the individual freedom that is central to our constitutional scheme. In this respect, freedom of association receives protection as a fundamental element of personal liberty. In another set of decisions, the Court has recognized a right to associate for the purpose of engaging in those activities protected by the First Amendment -- speech, assembly, petition for the redress of grievances, and the exercise of religion. The Constitution guarantees freedom of association of this kind as an indispensable means of preserving other individual liberties.

Roberts v. United States Jaycees, 468 U.S. 609, 617-618 (1984) (emphasis added).

First Amendment Issue: As of right now, FGCU makes the argument that they aren't infringing upon our right to freely associate because they are "allowing" us to "be" on campus. In other words, they make the argument that they aren't infringing upon our rights by denying us meeting space on campus because we can technically "associate" with whomever we feel when we're out and about on school grounds, i.e., outside. This argument has been made before, and has failed. And you are right, Healy v. James, 408 U.S. 169, 183 (1972), holding that "there can be no doubt that denial of official recognition, without justification, to college organizations burdens of abridges that associational right. The primary impediment to free association flowing from nonrecognition is the denial of use of campus facilities for meetings and other appropriate purposes."

You do understand that Healy had to do with political speech? (Meanwhile, the BSA case involved religion and whether the BSA could limit membership to those who believe in God.) See my cite to Roberts above.

Here at FGCU, and this is where the 14th Amendment equal protection analysis comes into play, FGCU provides certain fraternities with campus facilities for meetings on campus, but is denying us that right. Thus, in one fell swoop they are infringing upon our 1st Amendment rights, and at the same time, by providing other fraternities with those rights, discriminating against us in violation of equal protection laws.

So far, FGCU has failed to articulate any legal justification for excluding us from usage of campus facilities.

I thought it was recognition you want, not just use of facilities.

Thus, MysticCat, as you can see (and this is not a shot at you) I am not grossly overstating the rights of expressive organizations. Were FGCU to ban all Greek life, they'd actually have a stronger legal argument than they do now. However, by recognizing certain groups, FGCU is legally bound to afford all student groups with the same opportunities.

The Fourteenth Amendment prohibits the school from treating similarly situated entities differently. Since nothing you have said has shown me that the Kappa Sig colony is similarly situated to the IFC chapters that actually followed the procedure for recognition, it still looks like you're overstating things to me.

But I'll give you this: you're managing to do it in a particularly condescending and arrogant way. Props for that. Perhaps you're on the right track after all and I just can't see it for all the hubris.

[33girl]

KSigAdvisor, you are a fucking idiot.

No school has to grant ANY group recognition. The only thing that freedom of assocation protects is the right of students to join any group - recognized or unrecognized - without fear of harassment/suspension/expulsion.

As a matter of fact, your argument is really AGAINST freedom of association - as you want to "force" FGCU and its students to accept an organization that they have shown, in a vote, that they do not want. Even if FGCU had approved you, the IFC could still vote you down.

You don't have a leg to stand on as far as equal protection until another fraternity comes in and the school recognizes them immediately.

DKE dealt with things like this for a long time, at many schools, and without the whining. I suggest you google them and learn something.

May I reiterate: you are a fucking idiot. (And longwinded, too.)

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by 33girl

you are a fucking idiot.



May I reiterate: you are a fucking idiot.

Because it just had to be said again.

[FSUZeta]

"2 Scenerios:
Kappa Sigma organization the organization was asked to wait and had 2 choices: Say, "Okay, we're grownups and are willing to wait and work with FGCU until something can work." Or, "To hell with you and your request and rules. We'll colonize anyway. We realize that this will bring disharmony between our organization and the administration. But, we don't care! This is just like Patrick Henry. Give us our toga parties or give us death!"

Or,
A group of students didn't read the rules, made their group, contacted Kappa Sigma. Kappa Sigma didn't read the rules, found out too late, and is now facing an uphill battle instead of welcoming arms, because you didn't read the rules." LaneSig

from what i hear, it was a combination of the two.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

As for you, LaneSig, I believe in complete disclosure and and factual accuracy, so here's what went down: A group of students wanted to start a fraternity and contacted us. We then sent in one of our staff members to meet with FGCU. FGCU informed us that they "weren't open for expansion" and that IFC only "invites" fraternities to come onto campus every year or so. We thought Fort Myers was in the United States of America, so we respectfully said we are coming anyway. For those who keep arguing that at this point we should have respected the university's wishes, you are missing the point.


Vote us down?? What world did you wake up in this morning??! Students get to decide what other students can and can't do???! Other groups can "vote us down" because they don't want us on campus? I've never heard of anything dumber in my entire life.

The IFC can't "vote off" the Catholic student association, the Polo club, or any other group any more than they can vote of the Kappa Sigma Fraternity. Just like those other groups, we don't have to be a part of "IFC" to be a student organization.

So, you did know about the rule, but went ahead and did it anyway.

BTW-Does Kappa Sigma allow anyone to join a chapter? No? Your members within the chapters vote who to allow and who not to allow? Why, that's discrimination! You shouldn't keep out people who want to join your chapters. That's infringing on their Constitutional right of these non-members to have the freedom to associate with your members, whether your members want them to or not. You have to allow them to join. It's their right.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

but stupid people anger me.

So you must be really pissed at yourself

Telling a group of students they can't organize and function on campus is not a rule, it's discrimination. We (the undergraduate students) have the same rights as every other students.

You have the same rights, and have to follow the same rules as everybody else.

MysticCat, it sounds like maybe slow days are normal for you, cognitively speaking. We don't need recognition from the other fraternities to operate on campus. "Recognition" is the name for the rights that come therewith, i.e., use of campus facilities. We seek "recognition" from FGCU, because they are a state actor and must provide student organizations with certain rights such as use of university facilities. We don't seek anything from IFC anymore.

Actually they don't. Freedom of association is not the same as saying that if an organization asks for something, it has to be granted. It just means that an individual can't be punished for who they associate with, or groups they join.

"Recognition" by the IFC has zero effect on whether FGCU "recognizes" us as a student organization just like it does every other student organization.

Actually, I'm sure every organization needs some kind of recognition process they have to go through. Since fraternities are by their very nature discriminatory, IFC has to approve, instead of the office of student involvement who would normally be the case.

If 10 other student groups decided to form a group of representatives and that group "voted" your group off campus, what would you say?

It's called a student government. And there is nothing to say that people can not join Kappa Sigma, or will get punished for it.

I think there is more to your mention of the Hitler Corps than I originally thought 33Girl, because you support blatantly communist principles.

You are calling all of us idiots, yet you don't know the difference between Communism and Fascism/Nazism? Newsflash, but Hitler hated the Communists .

The IFC can't "vote off" the Catholic student association, the Polo club, or any other group any more than they can vote of the Kappa Sigma Fraternity. Just like those other groups, we don't have to be a part of "IFC" to be a student organization.

No they can't, because those groups aren't GLOs. However, I'm sure they have to be recognized by somebody before the school would give support to them. The school has very limited resources. As such, they will not use those resources unless they know that the students support said group.

If you can get over my insults, MysticCat, the ones that I'm entitled to because your groups voted to keep us out of IFC, then please expand upon your following comment:

So you say you have the right to call somebody an idiot, because members of their group that they might not even know voted against you? Even if that was true, Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia is not at FGCU or even in NIC.

Why are we not similarly situated? Because FGCU invented an unconstitutional and discriminatory rule that we chose to fight? I wuold like to see you articulate a defense to that catch 22. "You can't come on campus, and if you choose to anyway, then we can discriminate against you, because we told you not to in the first place." That's not a rule, that's discrimination.

You are an idiot. That is like saying that putting people in jail because they broke the law is discrimination.

[CougarGrad]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Vote us down?? What world did you wake up in this morning??! Students get to decide what other students can and can't do???! Other groups can "vote us down" because they don't want us on campus?

I'm confused. If you're an advisor- which I'm not doubting that you are- how can you not know how the Greek expansion process works?

I can show up at TCU and recruit all kinds of young ladies to join the new "chapter" of Alpha Phi. We can have "recruitment," and events, and mixers, and initiations, and everything.

...and if we're not recognized as a chapter by the Panhellenic council, OR the university, we won't be recognized by our Executive Office, either.

If this chapter of Kappa Sigma isn't officially recognized at FGCU, can it be officially recognized by your HQ?

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

As for you, LaneSig, I believe in complete disclosure and and factual accuracy, so here's what went down: A group of students wanted to start a fraternity and contacted us. We then sent in one of our staff members to meet with FGCU. FGCU informed us that they "weren't open for expansion" and that IFC only "invites" fraternities to come onto campus every year or so. We thought Fort Myers was in the United States of America, so we respectfully said we are coming anyway. For those who keep arguing that at this point we should have respected the university's wishes, you are missing the point. Telling a group of students they can't organize and function on campus is not a rule, it's discrimination. Don't minimize the importance of our plight. First amendment freedoms are as equally important to fraternities as applied to any other group. We (the undergraduate students) have the same rights as every other students. Universities can't simply exclude groups from campus while recognizing other groups, and we will prevail on this point, I promise you.

KSig Advisor -

My apologies, you did post this earlier and I even quoted it in an earlier post. But, now it kind of looks like you are changing your story. In my above quote you are saying that the Administration just said "No" and didn't give you any information. But, in this earlier post you are admitting that the Administration basically said, "Not now. We are inviting groups." Probably asking groups to present and the best fit would be allowed.

So which is it? The Administration said "Not now" and you all said we're going to do it anyway? Which is what you said earlier.

Or, your new story? The Administration said "No" and nothing else. So you went ahead thinking that it would be acceptable?

[KSigAdvisor]

Originally Posted by 33girl

KSigAdvisor, you are a fucking idiot.

No school has to grant ANY group recognition. The only thing that freedom of assocation protects is the right of students to join any group - recognized or unrecognized - without fear of harassment/suspension/expulsion.

As a matter of fact, your argument is really AGAINST freedom of association - as you want to "force" FGCU and its students to accept an organization that they have shown, in a vote, that they do not want. Even if FGCU had approved you, the IFC could still vote you down.

You don't have a leg to stand on as far as equal protection until another fraternity comes in and the school recognizes them immediately.

DKE dealt with things like this for a long time, at many schools, and without the whining. I suggest you google them and learn something.

May I reiterate: you are a fucking idiot. (And longwinded, too.)

QFP. Idiot, times two.

[ForeverRoses]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I'm glad I'm having a slow day.

I must say that I am glad you are having a slow day. This thread has been fun to lurk in- although I'll take the "you're just young" part as a complement.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

LaneSig: Where do I begin? Your quoted section from the NIC Expansion Resolution states "request" approval. Should your fraternity decide not to pursue its rights when a public institution denies your approval "request," then that is your right to tuck tail and run. Seriously, no qualms with your organization only wanting to expand where a university grants approval, because it is a tough fight. To each his own. However, Kappa Sigma does not tuck tail and run. We stand up for our First Amendment rights and take these institutions head on. To do otherwise is a gross violation of what our founding fathers fought so hard for in establishing this great country. The Constitution protects all of us from the idea that a university (or any governmental entity) may take taxpayer money, construct some buildings, and then deny citizens their civil rights. I take my obligation to stand up for our freedoms seriously. You obviously see it a different way. Thank goodness others throughout history, such as women and African Americans, when being denied the right to vote because those were the "rules," didn't roll over and go home. The fact that you discourage courage is a disservice to your members. Again, operate how you will, to each his own, but I see it as cowardice. Call me crazy, but I detest discriminatory practices under the guise of "those are the rules." We made the "request" in November of 2008, and were denied by FGCU. That denial, as we see it, is a violation of our rights, and we are standing up for our rights accordingly.

Seriously? You are now comparing an unrecognized Kappa Sigma colony to the struggle of African Americans and women to get their civil rights. Wow. Just, wow.

I can assure you that Sigma Chi does not just "roll over and go home" when we face a problem.

What we do is make sure we know the atmosphere of the campus. We make sure that we have the full cooperation of the administration before anything happens. We make sure that all the "t"s are crossed and the "i"s dotted. That way, there is no problem.

You requested to come on and colonize in 2008? Is this Kappa Sigma the organization or the group that became Kappa Sigma?

2 Scenerios:
Kappa Sigma organization the organization was asked to wait and had 2 choices: Say, "Okay, we're grownups and are willing to wait and work with FGCU until something can work." Or, "To hell with you and your request and rules. We'll colonize anyway. We realize that this will bring disharmony between our organization and the administration. But, we don't care! This is just like Patrick Henry. Give us our toga parties or give us death!"

Or,
A group of students didn't read the rules, made their group, contacted Kappa Sigma. Kappa Sigma didn't read the rules, found out too late, and is now facing an uphill battle instead of welcoming arms, because you didn't read the rules.

Which is it?

BTW - 33girl- I wish we were back in college. I would definately serenade you with "The Sweetheart of Sigma Chi" song on ASA's front porch.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

BTW - 33girl- I wish we were back in college. I would definately serenade you with "The Sweetheart of Sigma Chi" song on ASA's front porch.

You have NO idea how much I needed that today. Missing the Sigma Chi boys badly...

And to segue, I have to say that everything LaneSig says is true. Sigma Chi is attempting to return to my campus and they are doing an AMAZING amount of homework as far as making sure the campus is ready for it, enlisting alumni, telling alumni in no uncertain terms what they're signing on for, getting their name out to the campus Greek community etc etc.

BTW, KSig"Advisor" (because I hope to hell you really are not this chapter's advisor), I haven't had a boy call me a stupid drunk so much in a long time. It's kind of giving me a lady boner.