Is it time to change who we think of as legacies?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

What do you mean? The why was someone really released part? That I'm with you on: if you validly know it because you were there, then you shouldn't be saying here.

But just talking about legacies and the policies that would be ideal doesn't seem in any way forbidden.

My GLO's legacy policy is pretty open. I'm not completely sure that it should be this easily retrievable, but you can google and get a copy of the policy and form itself.

I'm just saying you're not going to get the other half of the conversation, because it's not one that you (or anyone who was not present) as the right to know. Quite frankly I don't think that a chapter and its advisors would toss a VIP legacy aside for because her nose was too big or for some other frivolus reason. "Fit" is simply that. Yes, girls can be shallow as hell but no one wants to make that phone call. It is a shame that the mother in this case chose to turn her back on her sorority when they only did what she herself had done in MS during her college years.

I think it speaks more toward the entitlement of parents who think that their special snowflake daughter is more deserving than 50 other girls there. If it were me I would be sad that my daughter would not also be my sister, but I would also move on. Particularly if my daughter found her home elsewhere, whether in another sorority or on campus group. (Hell I'm a legacy that didn't go where I was supposed to.)

[UGAalum94]

Sorry. I got my signals crossed. I understood the reason that the half of the conversation was missing. I mentioned it in the post, so I thought you meant something else in addition.

I'm afraid that some legacies at the really big recruitments with a bunch of legacies going through DO get cut for reasons as superficial as anyone. I'd love it to be different, but I'm afraid that's the deal. Since you can't keep them all, there's a license to be pretty cavalier about the whole thing. You've got your ticket to second round, but that's it. And maybe that's like it ought to be, I don't know.

I suspect you are right in the particular case we were talking about because of the mother's involvement at that chapter and they wouldn't have written it off so easily, but I'll be honest, I'd be like that mom. At the point I've worked for a chapter for years, and I send my (seemingly well qualified) kid through rush and you cut here, I'm probably done with you. Your rejection of my (hypothetical) kid is going to be taken pretty personally. It's not the whole because she's my little (hypothetical) perfect snowflake, but because she's my (hypothetical) flesh and blood and you cut her.

I don't think I feel that way if I knew her GPA was way lower than average or that she didn't have involvement and leadership or any of the factors that are built in to consider. And if she was borderline autistic or freakishly shy, I think I'd know that too and understand that might get her cut too.

But "fit" isn't going to get it done as a good explanation. I've, as have we all, watched 18-22 year old women choose their social groups and the reasons that they use are not always good ones. I accept that membership is in the hands of the undergraduate chapter, but that doesn't mean I believe they are going to make good decisions all the time. And at the point I have direct personal experience with a group at a chapter making jerky decisions, I'm not going to keep working for them, assuming that I had been.

[SWTXBelle]

I think my reaction to my legacy being cut would depend on how my daughter felt about it. I wouldn't be happy if she felt she fit in and was cut, but I wouldn't hold it against the entire sisterhood.

[PGD-GRAD]

Guess I opened a can of worms with that post about the highly-recommended legacy and her mother! I felt it belonged here because you are all talking about doing away with legacy info. and all that.
I actually WAS in the room, at least the room with my wife when the call came because it was my daughter who was in the middle of all this.

I lived through the phone calls and all that went with them. I can shed a little more light on it I think. When my wife was in the middle of the installation of the chapter she helped found, the whole national team was in our home. My daughter, who was in high school, shared her bathroom with travelling consultants. She personally met the whole national officer team and they--at that point--said that they were impressed with her and that the president (not her title) wanted to personally write the rec. for my daughter wherever she went, if they had a ___ chapter.

From the first party, something was wrong. My daughter called after first round (more than 9 parties) and said that she felt like she'd made a friend at every party except for ___. Her quote was, "If I walked across campus, I now could speak to someone from every chapter except for __." My wife and I both felt that she was maybe reading it wrong.

She was invited back to the max for second round, including two "old guard" houses that many other girls were cut from. We knew little about Old South rush, but one girl said to her, "You are so lucky to be going back to ___; they even cut so-and-so from Dallas!" Anyway, in all this, she definitely began to consider other houses, considering her "funny feeling" about my wife's GLO.

Day before pref. we go the call from her, not the chapter. That came hours later from the visiting field rep. who found the the rec.letters for her and some other girls in an envelope on the kitchen table. The girls (or alums!) had not wanted her to see them during the voting the night before. My daughter was invited back to AMAZING houses, and had been cut only by my wife's house. We talked it over and she chose 3 houses for pref. My wife, of course, was devastated, so I stayed on the phone to talk to my daughter.

I can tell you all that it made me see a whole new side of her. "Daddy," she said, "I'm not so mad they cut me, but how could they treat Mom like this? She's given years to ___; how could they disrespect her like that and use me?" I WAS SO PROUD THAT SHE WAS ANGRY AND HURT FOR MY WIFE, NOT FOR HERSELF.

I asked her where her heart was and she told me ___. This was a house that I knew was a top house. I know you all hate the "tiers" thing, but even when we visited campus, it was apparent particular house was very highly regarded. Interestingly enough, her mom's GLO was considered very average really; we both picked up on it in fact.

So--(and you'll all hate me for this)--I TOLD HER TO SUICIDE ___. I asked her if she'd be happy anyplace else and she said NO. She decided if she did not get it, she'd go thorough rush the next semester. I left it at that and did not tell my wife.

Horrifyingly enough, the next day (Saturday) my wife hosted 12 alumni sororoity women for a training session for her chapter. Can you imagine how that felt for her? She kept it together and told the women who asked that she did not know yet what our daughter was going to do.

That evening I told her that I told our daugter to suicide ___. Of course she had a fit, but I said that after all she'd gone through, she deserved her first choice and that was where her heart was. At about midnight we were still lying in bed awake and my wife said, "What if she gets nothing? Everyone on her floor is rushing; she will be so alone."

You guessed--we got up at 5 AM and drove the 4+ hourse to her school. We called her for breakfast and told her that we just wanted to surprise her and see how the "rush run" went---(not even mentioning that we had other motives!). Well---after we went back to her dorm before noon, the phone rang and it was Panhellenic---SHE GOT HER FIRST CHOICE!!
We were so thrilled for her: she cried, my wife cried, and I went in the bathroom and cried! I think quota was 48 or 50.

We drove around looking at all the decorated houses and when we drove by my wife's GLO she said, "Well, that's their loss!" We drove home exhausted but much relieved.

The next evening the phone rang and it was the National President. In short, here is what she said: ___ chapter made up their minds they were not going to have your daughter shoved down their throat. She said it would not have mattered who she was. She said when she called the house after the field rep. had told her what happened with her rec. letter, she said her husband had to make her hang up she was so furious!

We both were able to laugh about it after that. Yes, my wife's heart was broken and yes--my daughter got in the middle of what we guys call a "pissing match." But she had found her home and--in retrospect--it was a great fit for her.

She has been out of college for three years and had an AMAZING GREEK EXPERIENCE!! She loved her sisters and was invited to visit them in California, Texas, and Connecticut, places she would never have gone otherwise. She was in one wedding in Phoenix and one in Houston. She also attened one sister's wedding in the Bahamas! We also had her sisters come to the Midwest to visit here here!

In the long run, she found her home and had such an amazing rush for a "little Northern girl." I know this is L-O-N-G, but I wanted to tell you the whole story. We are now--and have been--a three Greek family and are proud of it. My wife continued to advise her local chapter for two more years, and the next summer at convention got a huge award as an Outstanding Advisor. I'll never forget when she came home she threw it on the bed and said, "Well, here's the payoff for ____." It an awful thing to say, but we both felt it. I don't mean she hates her own group, but now is very careful about writing recs. In fact, she at one time functioned as local rec. chair for our area. She did resign that in a hurry!

For those of you who write those RUSH THREADS, this was a short one! Here is the only hint I will give you. The day after we returned home, on a Monday, I called a flower shop near her campus and sent her a big bouquet of her sorority flowers---it was meant to be, I guess, she always did love blue irises!

[UGAalum94]

SWTXBelle, your position seems completely reasonable. I don't think I'd hold it against the entire organization, and I like to think I'd give the chapter another shot after I knew that particular group of girls were gone. But if you move on, you move on, so as you might get involved in supporting your hypothetical kid's chapter, who knows whether you'd come back to your own?

And think most people would agree if that they wouldn't be particularly upset if a chapter cut a daughter who wasn't interested in the chapter. It's only if you think she's dreaming of your GLO that it would hurt you.

And legacies being interested in the legacy GLO is a peculiar aspect of the legacy policies too. I wrote a bunch of recs this year, and as I was filling them out, I would think a little bit about the chances that I thought a girl would end up in any of her legacy chapters if she had them. For every chapter that I though would cut a girl, there was a girl that I knew wouldn't be interested in that chapter of her legacy organization, or so I think. We'll see in a few more weeks, I guess.

But it is weird, and I don't think I'm alone in this, that I'm willing to give the girls who don't go with the legacy chapter a pass in a way I won't give the group. What accounts for this unfairness on my part?

[SWTXBelle]

With the pnm, you are dealing with an individual. With the chapter, you have a group. I think it's easier to give a pass to an individual because it would be her personal choice. Also, you would not be disrespecting the alumna in the same way you would be if the chapter didn't respect the legacy status. Is that clear as mud?
If my daughter were to pledge another GLO, I'd be helping them out during my daughter's years there, even if there were a Gamma Phi chapter.

[MSKKG]

Originally Posted by PGD-GRAD

The day after we returned home, on a Monday, I called a flower shop near her campus and sent her a big bouquet of her sorority flowers---it was meant to be, I guess, she always did love blue irises!

YAY for blue irises!

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by MSKKG

YAY for blue irises!

That is a happy note in the story!

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by PGD-GRAD

So--(and you'll all hate me for this)--I TOLD HER TO SUICIDE ___. I asked her if she'd be happy anyplace else and she said NO. She decided if she did not get it, she'd go thorough rush the next semester. I left it at that and did not tell my wife.

Actually, most of us agree that if you wouldn't accept a bid anywhere else, you should go ahead and suicide.

[adpiucf]

I'm glad your daughter had a great sorority experience.

Her story has a happy ending! But... there is no proof from this account that she was cut from her legacy due to her geographic location, or that the fact that she was a legacy was kept from the chapter members and their advisers. Finding a packet of recommendations in the kitchen could be anything-- copies, etc. Even without national consultants visiting a chapter, there are still advisers and behind-the-scenes work being done to process all paperwork that comes in. Tensions run high at recruitment on all sides.

Chapters receive consultant visits throughout the year-- it may have been requested that this consultant observe recruitment, but it may or may not have had anything to do with them not following the legacy policy for the sorority or purposely mishandling paperwork.

I can understand your family being hurt over your daughter being cut, with or without your wife's strong sorority involvement. You raised a great kid, though, who went on to have an amazing experience with Kappa, and I'm glad she found a sorority that was a good fit for her.

And yes, "fit" is a word we throw around, but at the end of the day-- if you compared about 100 applications of your average PNM-- they all look the same. Great grades, accomplishments, recommendations-- determining if the PNM fits well with the chapter's local culture is often the only tie-breaker. It's not the most measurable quality, but just as in a job, you don't necessarily need the best man for the job, you need the man (or woman) who is reasonably well-qualified and is going to mesh well with the exisiting members of the team.

ETA: All this legacy talk has reinforced within in me that if I ever have a daughter considering sorority recruitment where this a chapter of ADPi, even my own alma mater, I will be sure to lay out to her that I'd be delighted if she and ADPi find a connection with one another, but I want her go into recruitment with the same open mind I was allowed to have. And to make the decisions that benefit her.

[UGAalum94]

The saddest thing to me would be a legacy who felt that she let her mom or sister down by being cut from the group.

It really is important not to put that pressure on the PNMs since so little of it is in their control.

[adpiucf]

And as PGD's post pointed out-- it doesn't matter who wrote your recommendation or how high up your legacy member is-- nothing is a guarantee. But also as his post pointed out-- the best place for you is maybe not the place you originally imagined it to be... and look at how great his daughter's experience turned out! She may not have ever had the chance to find out where she belonged if her "legacy" was an auto-lock.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by adpiucf

ETA: All this legacy talk has reinforced within in me that if I ever have a daughter considering sorority recruitment where this a chapter of ADPi, even my own alma mater, I will be sure to lay out to her that I'd be delighted if she and ADPi find a connection with one another, but I want her go into recruitment with the same open mind I was allowed to have. And to make the decisions that benefit her.

Me too. The ladybug PJs, toothbrush, shoes, hairbows, dresses and toys that my daughter have are all just coincidence.

No, I really will hope she joins where she's happy. Since we're here in NC, unless she decides to go far from home, or ASA suddenly has a sudden urge to move south, she probably won't have an ASA chapter at her university, anyway.

[tinydancer16]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Since we're here in NC, unless she decides to go far from home, or ASA suddenly has a sudden urge to move south, she probably won't have an ASA chapter at her university, anyway.

Heyyy, you never know, kiddies frequently decide to head far away from home for college -be careful what you wish for!

[NutBrnHair]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

The saddest thing to me would be a legacy who felt that she let her mom or sister down by being cut from the group.

It really is important not to put that pressure on the PNMs since so little of it is in their control.

Yeah, wait to put pressure on them after they get invited to your pref party!