Baby tests positive for illegal drugs? Arrest the mom.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Kevin, and anyone who believes as he does, is a bigot with limited exposure. He very much deserves to be badgered and called names. There is no need to apologetically question or coddle Kevin. He is an adamant asshole and knows exactly what he's saying. People like Kevin do a lot of damage to societies. Social policies should not be based on such inaccurate and inconsistent views of the poor and middle class.

/we all have our views that rub other people the wrong way but people like Kevin can fuck off a million times

As I said, I do volunteer work in our juvenile justice system representing children in deprived cases at no cost. I literally deal with the worst of the worst and I have worked on hundreds of cases. Unless it is your full time job to work with these demographics, I have a lot more experience at it than you do.

I doubt you've met many women who have given back double-digit numbers of kids to the state because they keep being born addicted to meth. I've represented the children of more than one.

Generational poverty is a thing. The proposed program would put a real dent in it. Especially among those with addiction issues.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by als463

Don't you think people may be a little more biased and feel obligated to remove a child from a home that is "poor" and less clean than a home where the parents are well-educated and have some money?

An adequately trained CPS worker should know the minimum standards for what is appropriate for a home. As you know, those standards are quite minimal and that the CPS worker needs to also be culturally competent. I've run into the latter quite a bit with intake workers getting pickup orders because what they viewed as abuse/neglect was really just how a certain culture dealt with those kinds of issues.

There was a great story about a CPS worker who was sent out on a referral about a Native American family. They went to the family's home, which was a trailer on some land. They found that the children had a place to sleep, but when they checked the fridge and the pantry, both were completely empty. Before said worker finished their investigation, they were asked if they wanted to have dinner with the family. Wondering where the food was coming from, they agreed. Subsequently, they were led down a horse trail which ended up at another trailer. Inside was family and extended family sitting down for a big meal together as is customary in that particular tribe's culture.

That sort of thing is part of the training CPS workers get here, but we have some pretty awful CPS workers and I don't doubt class plays a role in pickup orders. And intake workers.. the quality varies and they don't often stay there long. It's one of the worst, if not the worst job CPS has to offer.

I'll admit that in my past job working for CPS, initially I was more apt to judge the poor families who had been accused of neglect or abuse than the families with money and nice homes. I'm not saying I was right.

With poverty, neglect is sometimes a symptom of an overall disease. The family might be dealing with addiction or some other issue, so while poverty alone isn't going to get anyone's kids taken into custody (or shouldn't), you're going to find a lot more kids who are victims of abuse and neglect in poor homes than any other kind. That should be obvious to anyone.

I remember once getting a call about an upper-middle class home where a mother had slapped her teenage daughter and my first thought walking into the beautiful well-kept home was, "Well, maybe the teenager talked back to her mom and deserved a slap." Thinking back, there is really no excuse for hitting your child but, I almost found myself siding more with the married parents with the high income. For cases of low-income families, I might have gone in thinking, "This must be a cycle of abuse for this family." I was quite judgmental when I first started my career. It's good that things have since changed or I would not be nearly as successful in my current career as I am now. I just had to realize my bias and open my mind.

I don't see a pickup order being signed over one slap and no matter what the income of the family, that referral does warrant further investigation.

I do have to say that, if nothing else, I appreciate the dialogue of everyone in this thread because if everyone agreed 100%, then this would be a very one-sided discussion.

Yup.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

So if we're going to pay women to not get pregnant would we also pay someone a gratuity for being thoughtful enough to abort a pregnancy due to being G ill prepared?

Maybe we should pay men for being so douchey that no one wants to reproduce with them.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

So if we're going to pay women to not get pregnant would we also pay someone a gratuity for being thoughtful enough to abort a pregnancy due to being G ill prepared?

I'd be open to at least providing abortions gratis to anyone who wants one. Paying a fee would seem to be rewarding stupid behavior and the religious types would never go for it.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

...I have a lot more experience at it than you do.

No, you don't.

And your supposed experience is completely wasted on you. You completely miss the point.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by 33girl

And the other thing that kills me is...I have friends (middle class and white) who have asked for hysterectomies or tubal ligations and had doctors refuse because "you're too young to know what you want" and "you may want babies someday. You are a woman, of course!" But that's a different thread and a different struggle, I suppose.

I have a friend who has been trying to 10 years to get her tubes tied. What you've quoted above is the same crap she hears from doctors every time she asks about the procedure. No one has agreed to do the surgery for her, and she's 30 years old and married to someone who also doesn't want kids. She's basically begged doctors to do it, and they still refuse. It's ridiculous and sad. She has struggled taking birth control, as she usually suffers numerous side effects, and the last thing she wants to do is have an abortion (if she were to accidentally get pregnant).

Sometimes, even if you try to do everything right, there are still people out there who will refuse to allow it.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Let's spread the wealth.. give drug addicts free money in reparations. You don't do anything but talk shit about any proposal to fix the issue. You are not part of the solution. You're part of the problem. If idiots like you would get out of the way, we could have this issue tackled in a couple generations.

Oh, the irony.

Originally Posted by Kevin

#firstworldproblems. Our middle class "struggles" are certainly struggles, but no middle class income person is really worried about whether they will have shelter or the basic necessities.

There have been PLENTY of middle class families struggling over recent years to try to put food on the table and a roof over their families' heads. The economy tanked, in case you forgot. How do you suppose some of these poor people became poor? Sometimes, it's because they were in the middle class and a shitty situation led them to live in homeless shelters with their 3 kids.

ETA: What even constitutes "middle class" nowadays? It doesn't seem that anyone can agree on an answer.

[Nanners52674]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I'd be open to at least providing abortions gratis to anyone who wants one. Paying a fee would seem to be rewarding stupid behavior and the religious types would never go for it.

The fact that you took my comment as a serious statement is a bit disconcerting.

[AGDee]

I tried to get my tubes tied at age 38- divorced with two kids and with a disease that required medication that would be harmful to a fetus. Nobody would do it. At the same time, nobody would give me BC pills anymore either. It was infuriating.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

There have been PLENTY of middle class families struggling over recent years to try to put food on the table and a roof over their families' heads. The economy tanked, in case you forgot. How do you suppose some of these poor people became poor? Sometimes, it's because they were in the middle class and a shitty situation led them to live in homeless shelters with their 3 kids.

ETA: What even constitutes "middle class" nowadays? It doesn't seem that anyone can agree on an answer.

Quoted For Truth.

The latest economic downturn, job loss, and foreclosed home crisis were not only about "poor people". It was primarily people who were considered middle class who had not accumulated wealth and lived paycheck to paycheck. These people were living a relative good life with a house, cars, other materials. Many of them believed the pro-reproduction hype and thought they were financially and mentally prepared for kids. Wrong. But too late now. Now they need to find financial and emotional resources to help them stay afloat. More cities are assisting the middle class (i.e., mortgage assistance for teachers) instead of all resources going to the poor. The goal is to help middle class stay afloat so fewer middle class will trickle into poverty. It isn't as difficult as people like Kevin believe.

So, if poor people are going to be scrutinized, also knock on the doors of the non-poor. The non-poor don't get to hide.

[DrPhil]

I apologize to SydneyK for the thread jack.

[SydneyK]

No need - I've been on GC long enough to know threads have a tendency to get off track. At least the current discussion is interesting!

[33girl]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I have a friend who has been trying to 10 years to get her tubes tied. What you've quoted above is the same crap she hears from doctors every time she asks about the procedure. No one has agreed to do the surgery for her, and she's 30 years old and married to someone who also doesn't want kids. She's basically begged doctors to do it, and they still refuse. It's ridiculous and sad. She has struggled taking birth control, as she usually suffers numerous side effects, and the last thing she wants to do is have an abortion (if she were to accidentally get pregnant).

Maybe she needs to get a t-shirt made with Susan Smith's face on it and wear it to her next appointment.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Maybe she needs to get a t-shirt made with Susan Smith's face on it and wear it to her next appointment.

Or get a new OBGYN.

People in some cities are compiling lists of OBGYNs who stick with their training void of bias. There are OBGYNs who without challenge do tubal libations for women without children and women done having children.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

No need - I've been on GC long enough to know threads have a tendency to get off track. At least the current discussion is interesting!

Our bad.

At least we now know Kevin's knowledge and experience with the poor is limited to work with juvenile offenders.

[Nanners52674]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Or get a new OBGYN.

People in some cities are compiling lists of OBGYNs who stick with their training void of bias. There are OBGYNs who without challenge do tubal libations for women without children and women done having children.

Its appalling that it's come to this. That men can get snipped no questions but women have to argue and find a willing doctor. Yet another way to keep women barefoot in the kitchen.