Kappa Beta Gamma/Kappa Delta

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by oldu

Sorry about changing the name of St. Louis University -- should have known better. The SLU chapter of Kappa Beta Gamma was the first to be installed after the original founders at Marquette decided to expand and become a national in 1947. In 1975 it withdrew and took the name Kappa Beta Phi. In 1989 it became a chapter of Alpha Delta Pi. That became the fourth name the group has had, as it was originally a local sorority founded in 1928 under the name Delta Epsilon Phi. (The source of the above is St. Louis University and Alpha Delta Pi historical records.)

As I stated earlier the latest change of affiliation from a small national to a larger and stronger one is certainly not the first, nor will it be the last. It has happened many times. At Kent State University SEVEN chapters of AES sororities all left their nationals over a period of a few years to become NPC chapters, most shopping for a new national while still operating as a chapter of their former national. I doubt that any of the AES national organizations were encouraging this action.

So that situation doesn't really have anything to do with these because you're looking at a period of 14 years between withdrawal from KBG and affiliation with ADPi.

[Xidelt]

Originally Posted by dukemama

Just curious...besides KBG, are there any other smaller national non-NPC sororities?

Kappa Delta Phi NAS is the only one I can think of. It has 12 or 13 chapters in the northeast. There are others listed in other threads, but they are all professional/social sororities associated with specific majors (engineering, agriculture, etc)

[texas*princess]

Originally Posted by nate2512

Also, what were the specifics of their own nationals ability to provide liability insurances, lucrative scholarships, and things of that such? If they are paying outrageous insurance and dues to the national and they aren't getting a great return on investment then they do kind of have a right to be pissed.

I am a guy and I am in a fraternity and don't understand all aspects of NPC and smaller nationals and I'm sure I'll get flamed and tarred and feathered for this but its a few things to think about.

Their dues are $50 (which includes insurance). Ever heard the phrase "You get what you pay for?"

My dues for a professional GLO were much higher than that.

As a guy in a fraternity (NIC I am assuming?) would it be OK with you if a guy pledged a group, got initiated, then decided he thought your fraternity was way better so he dropped out and tried joining yours?

[vedette713]

Originally Posted by texas*princess

Their dues are $50 (which includes insurance). Ever heard the phrase "You get what you pay for?"

My dues for a professional GLO were much higher than that.

As a guy in a fraternity (NIC I am assuming?) would it be OK with you if a guy pledged a group, got initiated, then decided he thought your fraternity was way better so he dropped out and tried joining yours?

Hi texas*princess,

Absolutely no offense meant, but could I ask you where you got that number? Because as a soon-to-be alumna of the f&m chapter in question, I can tell you we paid $80 a semester, not $50 a year.

And while I recognize that many organizations have far higher dues, having just spent weeks up to my eyes in different Panhellenic sororities' extension materials, I know there are also groups that offer the experience for the same, or even a lower, dues. And — I'm guessing because they have larger memberships — the Panhellenic sororities are able to offer more extensive insurance coverage.

[nate2512]

Originally Posted by texas*princess

Their dues are $50 (which includes insurance). Ever heard the phrase "You get what you pay for?"

My dues for a professional GLO were much higher than that.

As a guy in a fraternity (NIC I am assuming?) would it be OK with you if a guy pledged a group, got initiated, then decided he thought your fraternity was way better so he dropped out and tried joining yours?

No, not NIC.

With that said, it's a bit different. Locals have initiations and get absorbed into internationals/nationals all the time. These locals all have rituals/traditions/initiations. In fact that's how my own chapter came about to be where we are today.

I don't really see this as too much of a difference, with five chapters I'd struggle to call it a national. And once again, how much of that money went toward to the national dues/insurance and how much stayed within the chapter? Once again, if the chapter thought that the national was no longer keeping their best interests in mind, and getting away from the very reason it was founded, and they came to our Nationals and expressed this and agreed with our ideas a lot more. And our nationals evaluated the situation and decided that this is something they would want to pursue, then no, I wouldn't have a problem with it all.

Because a large National is going to have much much more to offer and a much better return on investment. Now their members are going to have many scholarships awards and recognitions that they wouldn't be able to get elsewhere. Also it brings their presence on campus to a whole different level. It's now better for the entire Greek system at that school because if a girl hasn't heard of a sorority she may not join one, because she may not like the other one, and not rush to find out she may end up liking the other ones.

But truth is, there are far too many variables to the situation for me to say that I would agree or disagree with the choice. Obviously NPC protocol was followed, as well the Kappa Delta's national protocol, and they thought this was in the best interest for everyone, so I'm going to argue with someone if no rules were broken along the way.

Now, Joe initiates down the street at ABC, initiates then decides that mines better, hell no, he's not coming here. But that's a lot different than the situation at hand.

I'm not trying to say something was right or wrong, I just want to encourage to think about a few things that may give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Katydid617]

Originally Posted by texas*princess

Their dues are $50 (which includes insurance). Ever heard the phrase "You get what you pay for?"

My dues for a professional GLO were much higher than that.

As a guy in a fraternity (NIC I am assuming?) would it be OK with you if a guy pledged a group, got initiated, then decided he thought your fraternity was way better so he dropped out and tried joining yours?

I too am wondering where exactly you got this figure from. As the previous treasurer of the group in question I can promise you our dues were not $50 (in all of our years as a chapter they were never $50). We paid $80 a semester to KBG in addition to the $200 or so figure that we used for the upkeep of our chapter (i.e. recruitment, composites, new member education, Panhel dues, etc).

In addition, I am very uncomfortable with the information that is being exchanged on this thread. I have been following it with interest and I am surprised that so many people are quick to make assumptions without any knowledge of the situation and then post them on the internet.

As a member of the group that has been repeatedly insulted on this thread I am disappointed. We found ourselves in a unique situation and we did our best to diplomatically resolve it. When I became interested in joining a sorority, I choose KBG because of the women I knew in the group. I found a strong connection with them and honestly I was really not focused on some of the details that become important after I joined (i.e. bylaws, convention, and support from the National). Prior to my experience I knew no one who was Greek and was not familiar with everything that was involved or what I should know to look for.

In the years since I have joined, our chapter grew rapidly as did the Greek system at our institution. When we were looking for guidance or support from KBG, it was very hard to come by (it has been mentioned many times that they are and have been restructuring). We had received particularly outdated bylaws (1998, our chapter was founded in 2002), and incomplete information regarding what exactly our dues were paying for. I am by no means trying to insult KBG, but we were quickly outgrowing them.

When this change took place I was the President of the Panhellenic Council and I promise that all of the rules were followed and no "shady" business took place. We remained disaffiliated from KBG for several months prior to receiving expansion material. While this whole situation may have seemed very quick to outsiders, the women of our chapter worked on this for well over 2 years. I personally spent substantial time talking to both NPC and KBG and our chapter was released from KBG. We then proceeded with expansion with the support of NPC and our institution. After the long process we eventually decided that Kappa Delta was the best match for us and our institution.

Regardless of what some of you may feel, this group of women are some of the most dedicated, responsible, and loyal women I have ever met. This decision was not an easy one, but it was one we made collectively (with the support of our alums, who founded the chapter). Becoming members of Kappa Delta was an exciting and proud moment for all of us. We did not take this oath lightly, nor did we take the KBG oath lightly.

As it has been said many times before by several people, all of the rules were followed in this situation. If people would like to discuss this issue in general terms (GLO absorptions by NPC) that is fine, but there really is not anything to discuss in regards to the KBG/KD situation because every rule was followed.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by Katydid617

Regardless of what some of you may feel, this group of women are some of the most dedicated, responsible, and loyal women I have ever met. This decision was not an easy one, but it was one we made collectively (with the support of our alums, who founded the chapter). Becoming members of Kappa Delta was an exciting and proud moment for all of us. We did not take this oath lightly, nor did we take the KBG oath lightly.

As it has been said many times before by several people, all of the rules were followed in this situation. If people would like to discuss this issue in general terms (GLO absorptions by NPC) that is fine, but there really is not anything to discuss in regards to the KBG/KD situation because every rule was followed.

Thank you for sharing. It's great to actually hear from the source. Congratulations on becoming a Kappa Delta.

[dukemama]

Originally Posted by Xidelt

Kappa Delta Phi NAS is the only one I can think of. It has 12 or 13 chapters in the northeast. There are others listed in other threads, but they are all professional/social sororities associated with specific majors (engineering, agriculture, etc)

Cool...thanks for the info!

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

^^^ I agree with that sentiment.

My point of view is...where does it end? Like, what's to say an NPC couldn't just pick up a chapter of an NPHC? Or an all-female chapter of APO (it happens)?

While I'm not interested in passing judgment on the particulars mentioned here, I see what you mean.

I'd like to see the NPC try to show more deference to non-NPC groups, particularly if the non-NPC group is holding itself out as national.

I don't particularly find KKG or KD at fault in the situations we're discussing, but it wouldn't seem to be a good trend.


*although I don't think there's anyway that an NPC could pick up a chapter of a NPHC. Even if the women were interested, which seems unlikely, it would be a PR disaster. We're, for the most part, willing to accept that the NPC's were able to offer locals or KBG chapters something that wasn't available to them without NPC affiliation. Nobody with any sense is going to be prepared to make the case, especially publicly, that NPC membership offers something that NPHC membership doesn't. How would that go: "Um, yeah, but we're predominantly white or we're bigger and that's always better."

[ThetaDancer]

Originally Posted by vedette713

Hi texas*princess,

Absolutely no offense meant, but could I ask you where you got that number? Because as a soon-to-be alumna of the f&m chapter in question, I can tell you we paid $80 a semester, not $50 a year.

And while I recognize that many organizations have far higher dues, having just spent weeks up to my eyes in different Panhellenic sororities' extension materials, I know there are also groups that offer the experience for the same, or even a lower, dues. And — I'm guessing because they have larger memberships — the Panhellenic sororities are able to offer more extensive insurance coverage.

According to KBG's website, national dues are $50 per girl per semester.

I can't say for certain that it was t*p's source, but that's what I found.

[vedette713]

Originally Posted by ThetaDancer

According to KBG's website, national dues are $50 per girl per semester.

I can't say for certain that it was t*p's source, but that's what I found.

Hi ThetaDancer,

Thanks for the link! F&M's a mac-based campus, and the KBG website doesn't support macs (though I believe they're working on it), so that's the first time I've been able to see something besides the homepage. And I think you're right about it probably being t*p's source.

The site's a little out-of-date, though: For example, in addition to the former F&M chapter (Nu), the Epsilon and Mu chapter are inactive; the Xi chapter hasn't been added; and this is the first mention of scholarships and newsletters I've ever come across.

Obviously I've never been able to check this for myself, but my understanding is the site was last updated in 2004, which is probably where the confusion stems from, because our dues were definitely $80 a semester.

[BootyKBG]

Ok, I would have posted sooner but was not aware of this discussion until extremely recently. Here is what happened.

The Nu chapter of KBG at Franklin and Marshall decided as active members that they wanted to affiliate with a panhellenic sorority. They had been in discussion about this with nationals on and off for maybe a year before they formally requested disaffiliation. Several years back our nationals was weak and supported by ONE active alumna who didn't ask for help until other former executive members stepped in. Since then we have continued to grow and strengthen as a national organization.

Because of this weak time period, said national alumna who was serving as sole board member with poor judgement suggested the possibility of a merger to the chapters during the annual convention. Our strongest chapters at that time took this back with them, dispite the fact that during that same convention an entirely new national board came on and began the revising process.

Nu initially began asking for items that we simply couldn't or wouldn't supply, such as buying them a house. We had 5 chapters with extremely low dues compared to many NPC sororities, and because of this that is something that constitutionally we just don't provide. After much discussion the chapter decided that buying "stuff they could find their letters on" was more important that honoring their history and the support that KBG had provided up til that time, including the efforts of re-recognition by campus.

The chapter initially began the disaffiliation process as defined by the national bylaws and was open about the situation, compared to the chapter at Loyola who approached NPC without any discussion with nationals. Unfortunately, the affiliation with an NPC on both account began while the chapter was still under KBG. To this point, neither chapter completely disaffiliated as required, and NPC allowed their organizations to move in on the chapter with little to no formal contact with KBG Nationals.

NPC has in neither case given KBG the respect it gives its own sorority members in disaffiliation and affiliation with another organization.

[LPIDelta]

Originally Posted by BootyKBG

NPC has in neither case given KBG the respect it gives its own sorority members in disaffiliation and affiliation with another organization.

NPC is not a "governing" organization per se--no one really decides what can and can't be done, so much as the member groups work together to establish "unanimous agreements." So it may be more accurate to reference NPC member groups rather than blame NPC in general.

[KSUViolet06]

Could the difficulties in communication between KBG and the NPCs involved be explained by the fact that there is little precedent for this kind of thing? NPCs typically absorb locals, so I don't think they were really sure how to go about dealing with expansion and another national.

[BootyKBG]

Our website is being redone as we speak. I hate how out of date it is, but we should have a much better, current website in a month or so.

In addition to our Xi chapter, we currently have 2 colonies (Penn-State Harrisburg and Keene State College) and several interest groups. We are also in process of improving our alumnae relations and membership procedures. We are also in discussions with other non-NPC sororities about coordinating efforts, since NPC as a whole seems to find us insignificant and no more relevant than a local. (No offense to locals, but there should be a difference when it comes to "absorbing" or "colonizing" with another national sorority.) I would not be surprised to hear that the sororities who presented to our chapters were not aware that either chapter at F&M and Loyola had been formally released because of the disregard we've recieved as a national by NPC.

As a national organization we are continuing growth and improvement, so as far as gossip about being absorbed elsewhere, it is far from true. I am open to discussion if anyone wants to discuss this directly.

vice@kappabetagamma.org

Annie