Michigan's Prop 2 to ban affirmative action

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I saw no indication that you were asking me for my rationale in deciding affirmative action should end. If thats what you want, say so, and after this semester ends I'll be glad to respond...

I don't know but it looks like she's claiming that you, macallan, and I have misinterpreted what she meant.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

If you're asking for shinerbock to articulate a sophisticated methodology in determining why he feels affirmative action should be eliminated, he probably will not be able to do so. When people oppose affirmative action for the reasons that he does, it isn't about some measurable outcome or socially significant negative effect of affirmative action.

Then again, a less presumptuous approach to epistemology is similar to the standpoint epistemology that Patricia Hill Collins and others wrote about. Everyone comes with a particular standpoint that shapes their perceptions, opinions, research design, and so forth. He told you his opinion which translates to how he came to know what he knows (epistemology) within the context of what he knows. You don't agree with his opinion and you never will, but you can't dismiss it as unsubstantiated fluff when he has clearly said why he thinks what he thinks.

I have not seen any satisfactory articulation as to why Shinerbock THINKS AffAct should be eliminated. I could care less about how he feels about this subject and I probably already know his feelings as well as a few other folks here.

My career is about facts and statistics. That is my mindset and my modus operandi at all times. I need histories and "not what I feel about it today" or "opinions on it". What I deal with in my line of work is exactly what I can see. So, it is very difficult for me to make any inferences unless I am able to experimentally test it out based on a hypothesis.

With that being said, I have not been given facts or stats. It is not my opinion when I say things I do say unless I say IMHO or IMO. Period. Somebody has published and written this information on an US or state government agency website or it is trade literature...

No one has given me any trade literature, or US or state government agency website on the after-affects of ending Affirmative Action. At least for California, these sites should have 10 year data...

I do have the Washington State Health Outcomes data for my state. Almost all underrepresented minority groups have the worst health outcome for every measurement taken. These data are piss-poor for some groups in this state...

So my questions are "why are there huge health disparities" in the United States generally? What causes them to be so poor? The National Institutes of Health Roadmap Initiatives are requesting various research groups address this issue. One of the items they suggest as well as the University of Washington's School of Medicine website lists is that if there were more people of color as physicians to treat their communities, there would be less health disparities...

Is that true? I dunno? But let us look at the data to see... Well, if our kids are discouraged from even applying for undergraduate work, how will they be able to move ahead for graduate/professional work? Sure, there will be the <0.025% kid that succeeds every 5-10 years, but in the absence of a concerted effort among faculty and staff, there will be no one to shore up these kids as they matriculate...

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

No one is trying to put words in your mouth. I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and help you to communicate your points.

It reads like you are saying something similar to what I'm saying but in a different, perhaps less coherent, way. Yes, majority groups should be in opposition if it threatens their opportunity hoarding--if they don't come from a utilitarian framework. No, majority groups should not be in opposition just because of some assumed and socially insignificant negative outcome (if they can't explain WHY AffAct should be done away with, it shouldn't be done away with and opponents should go on about their business because why a black man got into some university typically will not affect them anyway).

Thank you and I appreciate your insight and compassion. As much as folks love to share their "opinions" with us, like I said, what are the facts? We can revolve around this iceberg's tip never going in depth to the core of the issue or we could try to learn something from each other. I prefer the latter. But hey, what do I know? I am just some hack trying free minds here. I have been teaching college student close to 12 years now and I like to think that I know how to get them to learn complex issues... I guess I am too much into the Socratic Method...

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

I have not seen any satisfactory articulation as to why Shinerbock THINKS AffAct should be eliminated. I could care less about how he feels about this subject and I probably already know his feelings as well as a few other folks here.

Shinerbock talks about AffAct all the time. The thread can be able orange juice for breakfast and he'll find a way to put AffAct in there. If you pretty much know how he and others feel about the subject then you should also know that it's not really about empirical support. There isn't any real data to support many of the cons of AffAct that such people highlight. It's mostly theoretical.

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

My career is about facts and statistics. That is my mindset and my modus operandi at all times. I need histories and "not what I feel about it today" or "opinions on it". What I deal with in my line of work is exactly what I can see. So, it is very difficult for me to make any inferences unless I am able to experimentally test it out based on a hypothesis.

I have a similar line of work and modus operandi most of the time. However, we're talking about social phenomenon and stances on controversial social issues. There will not always be facts and statistics to support every pro and con. That's the fact of the matter.

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Thank you and I appreciate your insight and compassion. As much as folks love to share their "opinions" with us, like I said, what are the facts? We can revolve around this iceberg's tip never going in depth to the core of the issue or we could try to learn something from each other. I prefer the latter. But hey, what do I know? I am just some hack trying free minds here. I have been teaching college student close to 12 years now and I like to think that I know how to get them to learn complex issues... I guess I am too much into the Socratic Method...

Well what I have learned in teaching college students is that it is important to challenge them to think bigger without denying their point of view credibility since many topics aren't about a die hard right or wrong. You already know they are less capable of articulating the same as you or providing you with immediate evidence. So instead of drilling the obvious into the ground, you let them give you what they can give you in a theoretical matter which will prompt them to go home and seek the empirical support for their theory. Theory always comes first and theory is practically the same as opinion in this instance since it's all about standpoint, anyway.

Either case, I hope your students don't have a hard time understanding what you mean the way some of us did.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Well what I have learned in teaching college students is that it is important to challenge them to think bigger without denying their point of view credibility since many topics aren't about a die hard right or wrong. You already know they are less capable of articulating the same as you or providing you with immediate evidence. So instead of drilling the obvious into the ground, you let them give you what they can give you in a theoretical matter which will prompt them to go home and seek the empirical support for their theory. Theory always comes first and theory is practically the same as opinion in this instance since it's all about standpoint, anyway.

Either case, I hope your students don't have a hard time understanding what you mean the way some of us did.

It is difficult for me to get out of it and reach to those unfamiliar with my daily concepts. When there is congestive heart failure in the left ventricular at diastole, we are no longer dealing with theory now, we are probably trying to stabilize and save someone's life...

I have no chance to "infer" anything. If I don't hear it "straight from the horse's mouth" then I have been trained to not assume anything... It is a matter of asking the "right" question. The man, Shinerbock, can choose to answer my questions or not. I can infer whatever I want. But I will never know unless I see his answer.

You and I do agree on one thing, most of these kids haven't a clue. We can either write them off as racist, ignorant, insensitive nutjobs. Or, we can walk them through "their logic" to see how they came to "their logical conclusions". For the most part, I see some of these kids having little exposure to ANYTHING worthy or meaningful. They may eventually get "there" in their lives, but then again, who knows? What I do know that what we hate the most will enter our lives most significantly... It is all a matter of time...

Now, that is one thing I know I cannot predict...

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

It is difficult for me to get out of it and reach to those unfamiliar with my daily concepts. When there is congestive heart failure in the left ventricular at diastole, we are no longer dealing with theory now, we are probably trying to stabilize and save someone's life...

I have no chance to "infer" anything. If I don't hear it "straight from the horse's mouth" then I have been trained to not assume anything... It is a matter of asking the "right" question. The man, Shinerbock, can choose to answer my questions or not. I can infer whatever I want. But I will never know unless I see his answer.

You and I do agree on one thing, most of these kids haven't a clue. We can either write them off as racist, ignorant, insensitive nutjobs. Or, we can walk them through "their logic" to see how they came to "their logical conclusions". For the most part, I see some of these kids having little exposure to ANYTHING worthy or meaningful. They may eventually get "there" in their lives, but then again, who knows? What I do know that what we hate the most will enter our lives most significantly... It is all a matter of time...

Now, that is one thing I know I cannot predict...

O.K.

[shinerbock]

Well perhaps you should start by asking a direct questions to those "kids" "who haven't a clue."

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

You and I do agree on one thing, most of these kids haven't a clue. We can either write them off as racist, ignorant, insensitive nutjobs. Or, we can walk them through "their logic" to see how they came to "their logical conclusions". For the most part, I see some of these kids having little exposure to ANYTHING worthy or meaningful. They may eventually get "there" in their lives, but then again, who knows? What I do know that what we hate the most will enter our lives most significantly... It is all a matter of time...

Now, that is one thing I know I cannot predict...

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Well perhaps you should start by asking a direct questions to those "kids" "who haven't a clue."

That's always a start.

[AKA_Monet]

Boys,

I think we are teaching a didactic course for you... Next week there will be quiz!

We are on the 2 week turn-around system here...

Welcome to GC University...

President - DSTChaos
Dean of Curriculum and Chief of GC Hospital - Dr. AKA_Monet

I think Macallan would make an excellent Football Coach... And Shinerbock an Atheletics Director...

Now we need the Registrar, Bursar and our Regents...

[macallan25]

Thats fine.....Mack Brown makes over a million a year.....i'll take it.

[AGDee]

I'm sad to say that it looks like it's a Yes on this proposal. Current projections say 58% yes, 42% no based on "Key Precinct Counts"

[PM_Mama00]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Whether or not people get into a certain college isn't the issue--it's how they do once they're there. You can brag about getting into your top school--but it's how you do once you're there that counts. If a minority student works hard and graduates within 4 years with a good GPA, then yes, he/she deserved that spot.

I believe the Grutter v. Bollinger lawsuit and subsequent decision led to the elimination of that admissions sheet at Michigan, even though the Supreme Court upheld its use. According to that sheet, however, you got the same amount of points for being the child of an alumnus and almost as many for being an athlete. Preferential treatment, whether it's based on race, class, or athletic prowess, has been here forever and is here to stay.

First paragraph, yes I agree with you. After the fact it doesn't matter and isn't a big deal, unless you are that person who got rejected even though you deserved that spot also.

I'm not sure about the sheet. I don't remember hearing if they did away with it. We went over it in one of my classes, and I just remember being amazed at the points you got for certain things... such as being a legacy, being an athlete, race, and all the other points they had.

I just hate the assumption that any minority student in college got admitted to fill a quota.

(sorry, i still don't know how to multi-quote!)

But that's the thing. I know that there are minority students who worked just as hard and deserve to be there, but there are many people who will assume that. (I'm trying to argue with one of the most racist transplant-Southerner I know about this whole prop 2 thing... he is one of those people) I just thought that it would eliminate that assumption and be fair to those getting rejected because of the "quota".

[southernelle25]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

But that's the thing. I know that there are minority students who worked just as hard and deserve to be there, but there are many people who will assume that. (I'm trying to argue with one of the most racist transplant-Southerner I know about this whole prop 2 thing... he is one of those people) I just thought that it would eliminate that assumption and be fair to those getting rejected because of the "quota".

Are white students ever concerned that people will assume they were admitted based on "race, class, or athletic prowess", rather than merit? If your last name is Bush, for example, do you care that everyone assumes you made it based on your family's connections??

[Taualumna]

But sometimes, departments and/or schools sway towards one group or another because that's who applies. White women make up the majority of elementary school education majors while men (especially Asian men) seem to go for hard sciences/engineering.