University of Texas Supreme Court case

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by shirley1929

Is it to spit out the smartest/best/brightest into the Texas workforce? Yes, again.

Is it? Or is it to spit out what the Texas workforce most needs? It would be nice if they were one and the same, but the fact is, I wouldn't take that for granted.

[adpimiz]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Um, how about the fact that that would be totally unfair to students from less advantaged backgrounds?

This is just silliness. I hate when people use this argument because there are so many people from all ethnic backgrounds who come from disadvantaged homes who still prove to be successful. Affirmative action is not necessary in order to achieve diversity. There are many people from all cultures, races, and backgrounds who are able to get in on the merits.

College admissions should not be based on race or background. It should be based on qualifications.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by adpimiz

This is just silliness. I hate when people use this argument because there are so many people from all ethnic backgrounds who come from disadvantaged homes who still prove to be successful. Affirmative action is not necessary in order to achieve diversity. There are many people from all cultures, races, and backgrounds who are able to get in on the merits.

College admissions should not be based on race or background. It should be based on qualifications.

Well, take this example. Susie and Jenny are both applying to Wawa U. Both of them have the same GPA. Susie's extracurriculars include Mu Alpha Theta, swim team, flag squad and National honor society. Jenny was in NHS, that's it. Obviously Susie is a better choice, right?

Well - what doesn't show on the application is that the average family at Susie's school makes 5 times more than the average family at Jenny's school, and Jenny's school doesn't even HAVE those first three things because the district barely has money to keep the school open.

If you get an assurance that college admissions people are going to take these things into account - that would be one thing - but I seriously doubt that is always the case.

[adpimiz]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Well, take this example. Susie and Jenny are both applying to Wawa U. Both of them have the same GPA. Susie's extracurriculars include Mu Alpha Theta, swim team, flag squad and National honor society. Jenny was in NHS, that's it. Obviously Susie is a better choice, right?

Well - what doesn't show on the application is that the average family at Susie's school makes 5 times more than the average family at Jenny's school, and Jenny's school doesn't even HAVE those first three things because the district barely has money to keep the school open.

If you get an assurance that college admissions people are going to take these things into account - that would be one thing - but I seriously doubt that is always the case.

Well, isn't that in part of what college essays are for?

I went to a very small high school that did not have much money, and had few extracurriculars to choose from. But, I highly doubt, that at any high school, NHS would be the only available extracurricular activity. Also, there are activities to do outside of school that do not involve having money - volunteering, church youth groups, etc.

I appreciate your example and I realize that this is a problem, but I do not and will not ever believe that affirmative action is a successful solution.

[Kevin]

It's also likely true that Susie's school was more academically rigorous.

[Low C Sharp]

Well, isn't that in part of what college essays are for?

Public schools with 50,000 undergrads don't have the staff time to devote to reading tens of thousands of admissions essays. There is no school the size of UT where essays play a big role in the process.

Even if they could read them all, essays can't be the answer. Kids from crummy high schools have crummy guidance counselors too. Those crummy GCs give them bad advice like, "Don't tell them you are working 30 hours a week to help pay the rent. It'll make the college think you won't have time to study." (I've seen it happen; you would not believe the incompetence and ignorance of some counselors.)

[shirley1929]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Well, take this example. Susie and Jenny are both applying to Wawa U. Both of them have the same GPA. Susie's extracurriculars include Mu Alpha Theta, swim team, flag squad and National honor society. Jenny was in NHS, that's it. Obviously Susie is a better choice, right?

Well - what doesn't show on the application is that the average family at Susie's school makes 5 times more than the average family at Jenny's school, and Jenny's school doesn't even HAVE those first three things because the district barely has money to keep the school open.

If you get an assurance that college admissions people are going to take these things into account - that would be one thing - but I seriously doubt that is always the case.

I totally get and agree with what you're saying. However, (re: the bolded) keep in mind that Texas is a Robin Hood state...Susie's district has sent MILLIONS to Jenny's to keep the scales closer to balanced. Although Susie's parents pay outrageous property taxes, 50% of that leaves their district - POOF - to go to Jenny's.

Not saying they're balanced...just saying they're not as far off as you're making it seem.

[shirley1929]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Is it? Or is it to spit out what the Texas workforce most needs? It would be nice if they were one and the same, but the fact is, I wouldn't take that for granted.

Fair enough. I guess I was blindly seeing them as one and the same. Chicken or egg? Maybe if we always spit out the best & brightest into the workforce, that WOULD be what the workforce most needed.

<rose colored glasses>

[GeorgiaGreek]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Jenny's school doesn't even HAVE those first three things because the district barely has money to keep the school open.

Both admissions officers and college counselors have indicated that the availability of classes and programs at your school is considered. Example: Big Rich High School has an IB program, 17 AP classes to choose from, and 8 sports teams. Small Rural High School has only 4 AP classes to choose from, and one boys' sport and one girls' sport each season.

Tim from Big School may have taken 5 AP classes and played football and soccer, but Johnny from Small School who took 4 AP classes and only played basketball might be considered equal or even at an advantage based on these aspects. It's not just about the the opportunities you're given, it's about the ones you take. Big state schools are especially aware of this when they have to compare applicants from different levels of opportunity.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by adpimiz

I appreciate your example and I realize that this is a problem, but I do not and will not ever believe that affirmative action is a successful solution.

At least you're up-front about having a closed mind on the subject.

I'm not saying you're wrong about affirmative action in general or about this case. (I'm not saying you're right, either.) But I will say that I think that unwillingness to consider the possibility that one might be wrong is rarely a good way to approach things.

[adpimiz]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

At least you're up-front about having a closed mind on the subject.

I'm not saying you're wrong about affirmative action in general or about this case. (I'm not saying you're right, either.) But I will say that I think that unwillingness to consider the possibility that one might be wrong is rarely a good way to approach things.

I respect your point, but I don't think that refusing to admit applicants to college based solely on race is a bad thing.

[adpimiz]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaGreek

Both admissions officers and college counselors have indicated that the availability of classes and programs at your school is considered. Example: Big Rich High School has an IB program, 17 AP classes to choose from, and 8 sports teams. Small Rural High School has only 4 AP classes to choose from, and one boys' sport and one girls' sport each season.

Tim from Big School may have taken 5 AP classes and played football and soccer, but Johnny from Small School who took 4 AP classes and only played basketball might be considered equal or even at an advantage based on these aspects. It's not just about the the opportunities you're given, it's about the ones you take. Big state schools are especially aware of this when they have to compare applicants from different levels of opportunity.

I've definitely heard that being from a rural area can work to your advantage. And, as I've said before, there are many things to get involved in outside of school, if your high school does not have many extra-curriculars.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

Public schools with 50,000 undergrads don't have the staff time to devote to reading tens of thousands of admissions essays. There is no school the size of UT where essays play a big role in the process.

My understanding is that essays DO play a big part. They don't consider race on its own, they consider it as part of a holistic score for all the students who are in the "maybe" pile, along with essays and other demographic factors.

[GeorgiaGreek]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

My understanding is that essays DO play a big part. They don't consider race on its own, they consider it as part of a holistic score for all the students who are in the "maybe" pile, along with essays and other demographic factors.

I think essays definitely play a part. I was deferred from a large state school's early decision (or early action? Too long ago; don't remember) when the school was very much a "safety" school for me. I was well above the 75% for SAT scores, had a fine GPA, etc. and put almost zero effort into my essay, assuming I was a shoo-in. I'm also a member of a demographic the school sorely lacks, and assumed this would assure my acceptance as well. After getting deferred, my college counselor contacted the admissions office (she had some wicked connections) of that college to get some insight, and basically was told that my essay just wasn't up to scratch and they really used that as part of the early decision considerations.
If it were just based on statistics and the bullet points of my extracurriculars, I think I would have been accepted in the first round. (As a side note, this isn't UGA that I'm talking about)

[Ladybugmom]

My daughter goes to UT. She also went to a very rigerous high school that sends quite a few students to UT each year. She was not in the top 10%, but she did have good test scores, good GPA at a difficult high school, and good extra curriculars. She was in the top 20%. She is a legacy to UT. Her father graduated from there in the 80's. Her legacy status was not a factor in her admissions. I also know that she is surrounded by friends who were in the top 10% of their less difficult high school and they are struggling. Carnation was 100% correct in her earlier post stating that not all high schools are equal.

Munchkin asked in an earlier post about how do legacies get admitted..the simple answer is just like everyone eles. UT does not consider legacy status when making admission decisions. The Hopwood Act, which inacted the top 10% rule, states that it is illegal to consider legacy status. As far as athletes, that is an entirely different ballgame and Im not sure if they are mentioned in the Hopwood Act.

I can't quote the exact breakdown of this year's student body, but I do know that white is no longer considered the majority at UT. The white student population is 49%. Blacks make up only 4%, Hispanics are at 22% and Asians are at 25%..these are approx. numbers based on an e-mail I received from the university. UT is also the most expensive Texas state university, which makes attending there cost prohibitive for many students.

I really dont know what the answer is. I do wonder why Ms. Fisher didnt just transfer into UT, which is much easier by the way, due to attrition from the students that fail out. She would then be a part of "the good ole boy network" here in the state of Texas