If Hazing is Wrong, what's a better alternative?

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by msl2008

also, i believe i am able to compare hazing vs non hazing also b/c i joined an 2 honor fraternities also. the requirements for one of them was to do 10 hours of philanthropy, have 1 on 1 talks with 10 professors, attend 10 social functions, and maintain a 3.0 gpa. i thought that was a joke compared to my fraternity hazing.

Apples and oranges.

now i've been thinking over all the comments and my own thoughts and here is my conclusion: i believe hazing is good b/c it weeds out people so the remaining members can feel like they accomplished something. now that may or may not be a stupid argument but for me i'm proud of joining my fraternity b/c lots of people who start do not finish and become brothers. to me, that makes me feel good that i accomplished something that others couldn't. it's like getting admitted to harvard, passing the cfa/cpa exam, getting promoted, or something like that. now if hazing were eliminated, i think the only way i would still be "proud" of being in my fraternity is if 30-40% of pledges never become brothers and so we maintain our "high standards." however, the thing i noticed with fraternities is that i would say 90%+ of pledges who begin become brothers and to me that just dilutes the program. maybe that's where i'm going with this....

just a thought

Going through hazing is nothing like getting into Harvard. You prove yourself to the admissions counselors by maintaining a high GPA, being involved, and striving for community service. Are people that went to Harvard "not good enough" because they didn't have to do pushups as part of their admissions process?

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Are people that went to Harvard "not good enough" because they didn't have to do pushups as part of their admissions process?

I really don't get what this guy's thing is with pledging and the military and physical stuff.

The military does that stuff because they're TRAINING PEOPLE TO BE SHOT AT.

You know, you can be a proud and productive member of a fraternity with having to *gasp* go through borderline basic training to get initiated.

Perhaps it's the girl in me, but I just really fail to see what physical activities have to do with developing members who are productive. I have seen my chapter produce class after class of dedicated members (many who go on to apply for national positions) without it.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Perhaps it's the girl in me

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Why the frown?

[msl2008]

my whole point is that i want to be part of an exclusive club. hazing (at least from what i've seen), has made lots of people quit and thus has made the club exclusive. if there was a non hazing program where we turn 60% of pledges into active members, i think that would be good enuogh for me because then it's not like everyone gets in.

harvard has a tough admissions process where only 20% of applicants get in or even lower. thus it is exclusive. if there was a non hazing program that could do this, then i would definitely consider it. in the abscence of that, the only way i see to make people quit is hazing. it might be wrong but i find a problem when everyone is accepted into an organization b/c it dilutes the quality. what if everyone was a doctor or everyone was a CFA/CPA or any licensed thing. no one would want that rite? thus we need something that can weed out people. hazing does that. also, a non hazing program that automatically dropped 40-50% of pledges could also do that and i'd probably be ok with that too.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by msl2008

harvard has a tough admissions process where only 20% of applicants get in or even lower. thus it is exclusive. if there was a non hazing program that could do this, then i would definitely consider it. in the abscence of that, the only way i see to make people quit is hazing. it might be wrong but i find a problem when everyone is accepted into an organization b/c it dilutes the quality. what if everyone was a doctor or everyone was a CFA/CPA or any licensed thing. no one would want that rite? thus we need something that can weed out people. hazing does that. also, a non hazing program that automatically dropped 40-50% of pledges could also do that and i'd probably be ok with that too.

But why make people quit?

Here's a thought, you could only take on those highly qualified applicants from jump street, and not have to be bothered with "weeding out" anyone.

This thread makes my heard hurt. i'm going back to Recruitment, lol.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by msl2008

my whole point is that i want to be part of an exclusive club. hazing (at least from what i've seen), has made lots of people quit and thus has made the club exclusive. if there was a non hazing program where we turn 60% of pledges into active members, i think that would be good enuogh for me because then it's not like everyone gets in.

harvard has a tough admissions process where only 20% of applicants get in or even lower. thus it is exclusive. if there was a non hazing program that could do this, then i would definitely consider it. in the abscence of that, the only way i see to make people quit is hazing. it might be wrong but i find a problem when everyone is accepted into an organization b/c it dilutes the quality. what if everyone was a doctor or everyone was a CFA/CPA or any licensed thing. no one would want that rite? thus we need something that can weed out people. hazing does that. also, a non hazing program that automatically dropped 40-50% of pledges could also do that and i'd probably be ok with that too.

It's funny how your stance went from "I know the physical stuff is wrong" to "physical stuff is what makes us exclusive." Which is it?

The examples that you are giving don't make sense. Going to Harvard, becoming a doctor, and becoming a certified CPA/CFA are things that are achieved by working hard academically, not physically. In these examples, exclusivity is reached from the start. Harvard doesn't admit everyone only to weed out the bad seeds -- they take care of it from the beginning.

[agzg]

Your selection process should be what makes it exclusive, not making people quit through hazing.

[msl2008]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

Your selection process should be what makes it exclusive, not making people quit through hazing.

Well i have yet to see a fraternity or sorority make their selection process exclusive. when i see 90% of pledges become brothers/sisters that doesn't scream exclusivity to me. what makes it even worse is when i talk to my friends in different fraternities and we discuss what we did during pledging and they all say they would've quit if they had my process. i feel very accomplished when they tell me that.

so now the hard part is coming up with a non hazing program that can effectively eliminate 40% of a pledge class so that only the strong survive and the ratios would be similar as if we had hazed which would keep the exclusivity but not break any laws.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by msl2008

Well i have yet to see a fraternity or sorority make their selection process exclusive. when i see 90% of pledges become brothers/sisters that doesn't scream exclusivity to me. what makes it even worse is when i talk to my friends in different fraternities and we discuss what we did during pledging and they all say they would've quit if they had my process. i feel very accomplished when they tell me that.

so now the hard part is coming up with a non hazing program that can effectively eliminate 40% of a pledge class so that only the strong survive and the ratios would be similar as if we had hazed which would keep the exclusivity but not break any laws.

Instead of eliminating 40% of a pledge class, why not pledge 40% fewer people? That's what I'm getting at.

Your MEMBERSHIP SELECTION (handing out a bid, extending an invite through intake, whatever you call it or whatever system you use) IS WHAT MAKES YOU EXCLUSIVE, NOT your new member program/pledge program/line program. You should initiate all the people you pledge.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by msl2008

Well i have yet to see a fraternity or sorority make their selection process exclusive. when i see 90% of pledges become brothers/sisters that doesn't scream exclusivity to me.

Is it possible that you don't really know what you are talking about?

Originally Posted by msl2008

what makes it even worse is when i talk to my friends in different fraternities and we discuss what we did during pledging and they all say they would've quit if they had my process. i feel very accomplished when they tell me that.

Take those stories to other people and you will get laughed at.

There's nothing impressive about someone who sits around boasting about their "accomplishments" as a "pledge." Have you done anything for your organization since then?

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by msl2008

Well i have yet to see a fraternity or sorority make their selection process exclusive. when i see 90% of pledges become brothers/sisters that doesn't scream exclusivity to me. what makes it even worse is when i talk to my friends in different fraternities and we discuss what we did during pledging and they all say they would've quit if they had my process. i feel very accomplished when they tell me that.

so now the hard part is coming up with a non hazing program that can effectively eliminate 40% of a pledge class so that only the strong survive and the ratios would be similar as if we had hazed which would keep the exclusivity but not break any laws.

Like DrPhil said earlier, why does having the hardest pledge process matter? Show your dedication to your organization as a member.

Again, if your "hybrid" program works so well, why are you concerned with coming up with something else?

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

This thread makes my heard hurt. i'm going back to Recruitment, lol.

Yea, it's like talking to a brick wall.

[ASTalumna06]

msl2008, first of all, like KSUviolet, your posts make my head hurt. Based on things you've said, it makes me think that you don't understand what Greek life is about at all.

Originally Posted by msl2008

i believe hazing is good b/c it weeds out people so the remaining members can feel like they accomplished something. now that may or may not be a stupid argument but for me i'm proud of joining my fraternity b/c lots of people who start do not finish and become brothers. to me, that makes me feel good that i accomplished something that others couldn't. it's like getting admitted to harvard, passing the cfa/cpa exam, getting promoted, or something like that. now if hazing were eliminated, i think the only way i would still be "proud" of being in my fraternity is if 30-40% of pledges never become brothers and so we maintain our "high standards." however, the thing i noticed with fraternities is that i would say 90%+ of pledges who begin become brothers and to me that just dilutes the program. maybe that's where i'm going with this....

No hazing = not proud of being in your organization? That's sad.

Unless of course... you got rid of 30-40% of pledges just because. Again, confused.

You say you'd maintain your "high standards" by just getting rid of this 30-40%. So... are you saying that 30-40% of the people you invite to join your organization are people that you don't even want in the first place? And if you're hazing, and you're weeding out 30-40%, you're saying that doing more pushups are the high standards you're trying to reach. I don't know about you, but when I would send in reports to nationals on the status and accomplishments of the chapter, I never said, "Each of our girls can do 50 pushups! It's a good thing we got rid of those other new members who couldn't even do 10. We're doing great now!"

Originally Posted by msl2008

my whole point is that i want to be part of an exclusive club. hazing (at least from what i've seen), has made lots of people quit and thus has made the club exclusive. if there was a non hazing program where we turn 60% of pledges into active members, i think that would be good enuogh for me because then it's not like everyone gets in.

harvard has a tough admissions process where only 20% of applicants get in or even lower. thus it is exclusive. if there was a non hazing program that could do this, then i would definitely consider it. in the abscence of that, the only way i see to make people quit is hazing. it might be wrong but i find a problem when everyone is accepted into an organization b/c it dilutes the quality. what if everyone was a doctor or everyone was a CFA/CPA or any licensed thing. no one would want that rite? thus we need something that can weed out people. hazing does that. also, a non hazing program that automatically dropped 40-50% of pledges could also do that and i'd probably be ok with that too.

Guess what... fraternities and sororities are exclusive clubs. Without hazing. If you want a pushup club, go to the gym and try to get some guys to attend some meetings with you. You can be the president of the whole thing. You can list your goals each week, and the person who does the most pushups gets a prize.

And I'm still unsure of why you want people to quit. I have seen some amazing people quit fraternities that haze heavily. Even the brotherhood is sad to see them go. So... why let them leave? Don't haze. How simple.

Originally Posted by msl2008

Well i have yet to see a fraternity or sorority make their selection process exclusive. when i see 90% of pledges become brothers/sisters that doesn't scream exclusivity to me. what makes it even worse is when i talk to my friends in different fraternities and we discuss what we did during pledging and they all say they would've quit if they had my process. i feel very accomplished when they tell me that.

so now the hard part is coming up with a non hazing program that can effectively eliminate 40% of a pledge class so that only the strong survive and the ratios would be similar as if we had hazed which would keep the exclusivity but not break any laws.

The reason that a lot of fraternities and sororities have 90% of their new members going through initiation is because they weeded out the people they didn't want before giving out bids. How can you not be exclusive when you hand out 50 bids on a campus of 25,000 people?

[moe.ron]

what if everyone was a doctor or everyone was a CFA/CPA or any licensed thing. no one would want that rite? thus we need something that can weed out people. hazing does that. also, a non hazing program that automatically dropped 40-50% of pledges could also do that and i'd probably be ok with that too.

Uhm, getting a doctor degree or a CFA does not required anybody to be hazed. I like to ask you this, if you want exclusivity, why in the world would you accept as many people as you can, then weed them out? Why not be exclusive from the beginning? Why not except as little people as possible? Be like the Skulls, be extremely exclusive.

[DrPhil]

If university admission is used as an example, it makes more sense to use programs with cohort effects. Undergraduates tend not to have extensive bonds with their cohort, especially when there may be hundreds or thousands of them.

Graduate programs that emphasize cohorts (not all of them do) and cohort bonding do have processes of exclusion and inclusion beyond the basic admissions requirements. Applicant weeks where applicants interact with faculty and graduate students are encouraged to attend programs that they may not want to attend and interact beyond their comfort level. Many faculty members consider themselves gatekeepers who have the last word on whether you remain in the program or flunk out because of their course. This sometimes includes being a complete asshole to some students and not helping students who need help. Yes, these faculty members are sometimes reported to the graduate schools and reprimanded if there are enough reports.

I have heard faculty and students refer to these as legal hazing rituals. Jokingly and seriously. So this is seen as a difficult but necessary part of the process by many people. They think that if you can handle it, you will be ready for anything when you finish your graduate degree.

(I am not typing in support of hazing, just providing the different contexts since folks want to use examples.)