msl2008, first of all, like KSUviolet, your posts make my head hurt. Based on things you've said, it makes me think that you don't understand what Greek life is about at all.
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Originally Posted by msl2008
i believe hazing is good b/c it weeds out people so the remaining members can feel like they accomplished something. now that may or may not be a stupid argument but for me i'm proud of joining my fraternity b/c lots of people who start do not finish and become brothers. to me, that makes me feel good that i accomplished something that others couldn't. it's like getting admitted to harvard, passing the cfa/cpa exam, getting promoted, or something like that. now if hazing were eliminated, i think the only way i would still be "proud" of being in my fraternity is if 30-40% of pledges never become brothers and so we maintain our "high standards." however, the thing i noticed with fraternities is that i would say 90%+ of pledges who begin become brothers and to me that just dilutes the program. maybe that's where i'm going with this....
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No hazing = not proud of being in your organization? That's sad.
Unless of course... you got rid of 30-40% of pledges just because. Again, confused.
You say you'd maintain your "high standards" by just getting rid of this 30-40%. So... are you saying that 30-40% of the people you invite to join your organization are people that you don't even want in the first place? And if you're hazing, and you're weeding out 30-40%, you're saying that doing more pushups are the high standards you're trying to reach. I don't know about you, but when I would send in reports to nationals on the status and accomplishments of the chapter, I never said, "Each of our girls can do 50 pushups! It's a good thing we got rid of those other new members who couldn't even do 10. We're doing great now!"
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Originally Posted by msl2008
my whole point is that i want to be part of an exclusive club. hazing (at least from what i've seen), has made lots of people quit and thus has made the club exclusive. if there was a non hazing program where we turn 60% of pledges into active members, i think that would be good enuogh for me because then it's not like everyone gets in.
harvard has a tough admissions process where only 20% of applicants get in or even lower. thus it is exclusive. if there was a non hazing program that could do this, then i would definitely consider it. in the abscence of that, the only way i see to make people quit is hazing. it might be wrong but i find a problem when everyone is accepted into an organization b/c it dilutes the quality. what if everyone was a doctor or everyone was a CFA/CPA or any licensed thing. no one would want that rite? thus we need something that can weed out people. hazing does that. also, a non hazing program that automatically dropped 40-50% of pledges could also do that and i'd probably be ok with that too.
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Guess what... fraternities and sororities are exclusive clubs. Without hazing. If you want a pushup club, go to the gym and try to get some guys to attend some meetings with you. You can be the president of the whole thing. You can list your goals each week, and the person who does the most pushups gets a prize.
And I'm still unsure of why you want people to quit. I have seen some amazing people quit fraternities that haze heavily. Even the brotherhood is sad to see them go. So... why let them leave? Don't haze. How simple.
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Originally Posted by msl2008
Well i have yet to see a fraternity or sorority make their selection process exclusive. when i see 90% of pledges become brothers/sisters that doesn't scream exclusivity to me. what makes it even worse is when i talk to my friends in different fraternities and we discuss what we did during pledging and they all say they would've quit if they had my process. i feel very accomplished when they tell me that.
so now the hard part is coming up with a non hazing program that can effectively eliminate 40% of a pledge class so that only the strong survive and the ratios would be similar as if we had hazed which would keep the exclusivity but not break any laws.
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The reason that a lot of fraternities and sororities have 90% of their new members going through initiation is because they weeded out the people they didn't want before giving out bids. How can you not be exclusive when you hand out 50 bids on a campus of 25,000 people?
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