If Hazing is Wrong, what's a better alternative?

[msl2008]

astalumna, how exactly am i pointing out the larger member to his peers? just b/c i give him a lower number doesn't mean anything. it's not like i'm going to tell him "oh you're fat so you only have to do 30". i'm just going to say, "drop and give me 30." and also, you forget on when this is. if it's at the beginning of the night and he's fresh, then i'll have him do more and by the end do less (same goes for everyone else). even a fit person who could do 100 at the beginning will be tired at the end and wont be able to do 30. the whole point is to push yourself and look back on it later and be like,"wow, i accomplished this." and how do i know this? b/c i was the fat guy during pledging. i was pushed to my limit. i've been fat since i was 7. during pledging my confidence soared a ton as the brothers kept on pushing me to my limits. the first day i had trouble doing 20 pushups and by the end i could do about 50 at a time. a few months after pledging i took what i learned and lossed 50 lbs with my newfound "anything is possible" attitude. my grades were better after pledging then beforehand. my time management and work ethic improved too. now i might be one example but i'm sure lots of people can learn something from physical pledging if done properly (as i believe most of my program was b/c it was based on a military format). does it work for everyone? no of course not.

also, i believe i am able to compare hazing vs non hazing also b/c i joined an 2 honor fraternities also. the requirements for one of them was to do 10 hours of philanthropy, have 1 on 1 talks with 10 professors, attend 10 social functions, and maintain a 3.0 gpa. i thought that was a joke compared to my fraternity hazing.

now i've been thinking over all the comments and my own thoughts and here is my conclusion: i believe hazing is good b/c it weeds out people so the remaining members can feel like they accomplished something. now that may or may not be a stupid argument but for me i'm proud of joining my fraternity b/c lots of people who start do not finish and become brothers. to me, that makes me feel good that i accomplished something that others couldn't. it's like getting admitted to harvard, passing the cfa/cpa exam, getting promoted, or something like that. now if hazing were eliminated, i think the only way i would still be "proud" of being in my fraternity is if 30-40% of pledges never become brothers and so we maintain our "high standards." however, the thing i noticed with fraternities is that i would say 90%+ of pledges who begin become brothers and to me that just dilutes the program. maybe that's where i'm going with this....

just a thought

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by msl2008

also, i believe i am able to compare hazing vs non hazing also b/c i joined an 2 honor fraternities also. the requirements for one of them was to do 10 hours of philanthropy, have 1 on 1 talks with 10 professors, attend 10 social functions, and maintain a 3.0 gpa. i thought that was a joke compared to my fraternity hazing.

Apples and oranges.

now i've been thinking over all the comments and my own thoughts and here is my conclusion: i believe hazing is good b/c it weeds out people so the remaining members can feel like they accomplished something. now that may or may not be a stupid argument but for me i'm proud of joining my fraternity b/c lots of people who start do not finish and become brothers. to me, that makes me feel good that i accomplished something that others couldn't. it's like getting admitted to harvard, passing the cfa/cpa exam, getting promoted, or something like that. now if hazing were eliminated, i think the only way i would still be "proud" of being in my fraternity is if 30-40% of pledges never become brothers and so we maintain our "high standards." however, the thing i noticed with fraternities is that i would say 90%+ of pledges who begin become brothers and to me that just dilutes the program. maybe that's where i'm going with this....

just a thought

Going through hazing is nothing like getting into Harvard. You prove yourself to the admissions counselors by maintaining a high GPA, being involved, and striving for community service. Are people that went to Harvard "not good enough" because they didn't have to do pushups as part of their admissions process?

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Are people that went to Harvard "not good enough" because they didn't have to do pushups as part of their admissions process?

I really don't get what this guy's thing is with pledging and the military and physical stuff.

The military does that stuff because they're TRAINING PEOPLE TO BE SHOT AT.

You know, you can be a proud and productive member of a fraternity with having to *gasp* go through borderline basic training to get initiated.

Perhaps it's the girl in me, but I just really fail to see what physical activities have to do with developing members who are productive. I have seen my chapter produce class after class of dedicated members (many who go on to apply for national positions) without it.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Perhaps it's the girl in me

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Why the frown?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Why the frown?

I still don't believe this has too much to do with gender. Right or wrong, females engage in hazing at various physical levels.

Also, I frown whenever I hear women refer to themselves as/be referred to as a "girl."

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I still don't believe this has too much to do with gender. Right or wrong, females engage in hazing at various physical levels.

This is true. Maybe I was thinking along that line because in terms of GC like 90% of the hazing incidents we hear about are with fraternities. This doesn't mean that hazing is committed exclusively by males.

Oh and you are right on about grad school. Sometimes it feels like hazing, lol.