Shooting at Northern Illinois University

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by DGTess

Grateful that most of the students at NIU are uninjured, and in somber memory of those killed, I have to ask when we are going to start holding these universities and other schools accountable.

When are we going to recognize that someone like this shooter, with no criminal history, can do something so evil, and allow our students and professors to take charge of their own safety?

When are we going to point out that Illinois legislators are culpable? They have removed the option for law-abiding citizens to do anything but phone 911 and wait helplessly?

When are we going to push for the right to defend ourselves, our families, our brethren? When will we INSIST on having the CHOICE to defend ourselves?

I'm disgusted at any university administration and any legislature that does not permit self-defense.

Unless you mandate everyone who carries a gun get professional weapons training, we will return to the Wild West.
And where and how do you place "limits" on what type of weapons.
Hand guns, long guns, single shot, three shot, fully automatic military style, what caliber et al ?
And even pros get into trouble.
A few weeks ago in White Plains, NY an off duty, undercover officer was disarmed during an arrest and while picking up his weapon he either disregarded or did not hear warnings from other on duty officers. He was shot and killed.
The four officers involved in the shooting were doing what they trained to do; serve and protect.
It was rush hour; hundreds of people in area.
Just as the officers on campus did. They were there within minutes. And event was over within minutes.
The students seem to have done the right thing; get out of the way and get out of building.
Just how many college students do you know who have had professional weapons training?
I know one; a Brother who was a police officer.

While in Whitefish, MT a few years ago I thought I was in Dodge City.
I saw six shooters everywhere.

This kind of argument ends up being much like argument over death penalty.

How about if we just stay on topic of event here.
We can start a new,different thread on gun laws.
As well as a thread in R/M about guns in chapter houses.

[jon1856]

Found this link on CBS New site.
For campus newspaper:
http://www.northernstar.info/

[BetteDavisEyes]

According to the Sigma Kappa National Website, 2 of our sisters were in fact harmed. There is a letter from the Gamma Zeta chapter posted on the main site.

[texas*princess]

i can't believe this. it's so sad that it is not even safe to go to school

[LPIDelta]

Originally Posted by DGTess

Grateful that most of the students at NIU are uninjured, and in somber memory of those killed, I have to ask when we are going to start holding these universities and other schools accountable.

When are we going to recognize that someone like this shooter, with no criminal history, can do something so evil, and allow our students and professors to take charge of their own safety?

When are we going to point out that Illinois legislators are culpable? They have removed the option for law-abiding citizens to do anything but phone 911 and wait helplessly?

When are we going to push for the right to defend ourselves, our families, our brethren? When will we INSIST on having the CHOICE to defend ourselves?

I'm disgusted at any university administration and any legislature that does not permit self-defense.

Tess-- I am actually coming around to your way of thinking. Last semester, some students at the university where I worked wanted to see a change in policy to allow students to carry (legally acquired and permitted) guns on campus, in light of what happened at Virginia Tech. Today I read something that basically said that most gunmen know if they visit a college/university campus, they know that there likely won't be any resistance. But, if they know people carry there, they may think twice. After all, you rarely hear of gun shows being the target of a gunman.

Yes, I still worry about sick, immature or stupid people with weapons BUT laws don't stop those people from doing what they intend. I don't know--I find it so sad that we keep feeling these losses, and I am out of ideas about how to address it without allowing people to arm themselves.

[SWTXBelle]

FYI - the Luby's massacre in Killeen was a major factor in the the passage of the concealed carry law in Texas.

And I can't imagine the pain of those parents - and fellow students, faculty and staff.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by LPIDelta

Tess-- I am actually coming around to your way of thinking. Last semester, some students at the university where I worked wanted to see a change in policy to allow students to carry (legally acquired and permitted) guns on campus, in light of what happened at Virginia Tech. Today I read something that basically said that most gunmen know if they visit a college/university campus, they know that there likely won't be any resistance. But, if they know people carry there, they may think twice. After all, you rarely hear of gun shows being the target of a gunman.

School shootings are still a rarity.

If legislators make gun toting students legal and a potential nonrarity, there may be an increase in gun violence. For every student who claims to want a gun just in case a psycho starts to shoot, there will be a student who has a gun because an instructor pissed them off or because they have been hurt in some way. Let's not increase the gun availability for potential psychos or encourage Rambo students who want to defend campus. There aren't and won't be enough safety measures at schools to account for nonlaw enforcement agents legally having guns on campuses and in classrooms.

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

School shootings are still a rarity.

If legislators make gun toting students legal and a potential nonrarity, there may be an increase in gun violence. For every student who claims to want a gun just in case a psycho starts to shoot, there will be a student who has a gun because an instructor pissed them off or because they have been hurt in some way. Let's not increase the gun availability for potential psychos or encourage Rambo students who want to defend campus. There aren't and won't be enough safety measures at schools to account for nonlaw enforcement agents legally having guns on campuses and in classrooms.

Replace "student" with "citizen" and "campus" or "school" with "Earth". Students who are over 21, have passed the background checks (two - one for the gun purchase and a second for the permit), have taken the required training, and have mentally prepared themselves to carry are permitted to carry on the sidewalk outside the campus, but not across some invisible line.

You can see how well current "policies" and laws work.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by DGTess

Replace "student" with "citizen" and "campus" or "school" with "Earth". Students who are over 21, have passed the background checks (two - one for the gun purchase and a second for the permit), have taken the required training, and have mentally prepared themselves to carry are permitted to carry on the sidewalk outside the campus, but not across some invisible line.

You can see how well current "policies" and laws work.

There's no need to replace anything with anything. Students do not need to carry guns to colleges and universities just like employees do not need to carry guns to work if their jobs do not require gun access.

All this about background checks, training, and mental preparation is a theoretical assumption. In real life, it does not and will not work like that.

Current policies and laws work quite well. School shootings are still a rarity and are not a result of failed gun laws. Some of the general public is just scared now because school shootings have hit too close to home and that fear sensationalizes the issue. I look back to what happened when terrorized citizens bought guns in the 1990s because drug dealers had them (and used them). But gun carrying citizens did not reduce the violence in drug and violence-infested neighborhoods. It increased it, which is one reason why law enforcement began gun buyback programs.

Anyway, none of this matters because students, faculty, and staff in most areas will never be allowed to have guns around or on campuses. That's the reality of the matter.

[DGTess]

Unless you mandate everyone who carries a gun get professional weapons training, we will return to the Wild West.
And where and how do you place "limits" on what type of weapons.
Hand guns, long guns, single shot, three shot, fully automatic military style, what caliber et al ?
And even pros get into trouble.
A few weeks ago in White Plains, NY an off duty, undercover officer was disarmed during an arrest and while picking up his weapon he either disregarded or did not hear warnings from other on duty officers. He was shot and killed.
The four officers involved in the shooting were doing what they trained to do; serve and protect.
It was rush hour; hundreds of people in area.
Just as the officers on campus did. They were there within minutes. And event was over within minutes.
The students seem to have done the right thing; get out of the way and get out of building.
Just how many college students do you know who have had professional weapons training?
I know one; a Brother who was a police officer.

While in Whitefish, MT a few years ago I thought I was in Dodge City.
I saw six shooters everywhere.

Well, since the topic is "Shooting at Northern Illinois University" ......

Please - what about the "wild west" are you referring to? Bloodbaths in the streets? Oh, by the way, that's movie stuff, not history.

Who said anything about limits? Frankly, the 2nd amendment says, in part, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." I didn't draw a line; the shooter used a shotgun. Any type of firearm might - note might, not would - have saved some lives.

Frankly, I know many college-age students with significantly more weapons-handling experience than many police officers I know. In my area of the country, officers are required to qualify ONCE A YEAR - between 50 and 100 rounds - and many don't fire any more than that. Most recreational shooters and CHL permittees I know fire much more than that.

One officer was disarmed. Anecdotal evidence sure is handy, isn't it?

And, one more question. How many murders or massacres did you see in Whitefish?

[nittanyalum]

Tess, this is NOT the appropriate thread for the path you're trying to steer this conversation. Please have some consideration and start another thread if you want to continue your 2nd amendment rights rant.

[texas*princess]

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

Tess, this is NOT the appropriate thread for the path you're trying to steer this conversation. Please have some consideration and start another thread if you want to continue your 2nd amendment rights rant.

agreed.

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

Tess, this is NOT the appropriate thread for the path you're trying to steer this conversation. Please have some consideration and start another thread if you want to continue your 2nd amendment rights rant.

THIS IS A RANT AGAINST THOSE NANNY-STATE UNIVERSITY ADMINISTRATORS AND LEGISLATORS WHO WOULD MAKE STUDENTS HELPLESS. These students were SHOT, for god's sake. They could do NOTHING to help themselves. They could do NOTHING to help others. They were fish in a barrel

If you want to start a pity-party thread, go ahead. This is a news and politics forum, with a newsworthy event, and legislators who won't protect us.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by DGTess

THIS IS A RANT AGAINST THOSE NANNY-STATE UNIVERSITY ADMINISTRATORS AND LEGISLATORS WHO WOULD MAKE STUDENTS HELPLESS. These students were SHOT, for god's sake. They could do NOTHING to help themselves. They could do NOTHING to help others. They were fish in a barrel

If you want to start a pity-party thread, go ahead. This is a news and politics forum, with a newsworthy event, and legislators who won't protect us.

Administrators and legislators aren't the only reason the gun laws are the way they are. Many students, teachers, and tax payers in general do not think guns should be in the vicinity of educational institutions unless they are in the hands of security and law enforcement officials.

Students, instructors, and administrators are relieved by this because when you make such weapon carrying an option, you are basically forcing everyone else to either pick up arms also or get out of dodge.

[LatinaAlumna]

Update: There were more greeks involved:

Ryanne Mace, of Delta Psi Alpha Co-Ed Fraternity was killed.

Her fellow member, Maria Ruiz, is in critical condition.

I received this information from an email over the NALFO listserve. My condolences to these families.