Shooting at Northern Illinois University

[DGTess]

Grateful that most of the students at NIU are uninjured, and in somber memory of those killed, I have to ask when we are going to start holding these universities and other schools accountable.

When are we going to recognize that someone like this shooter, with no criminal history, can do something so evil, and allow our students and professors to take charge of their own safety?

When are we going to point out that Illinois legislators are culpable? They have removed the option for law-abiding citizens to do anything but phone 911 and wait helplessly?

When are we going to push for the right to defend ourselves, our families, our brethren? When will we INSIST on having the CHOICE to defend ourselves?

I'm disgusted at any university administration and any legislature that does not permit self-defense.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by DGTess

Grateful that most of the students at NIU are uninjured, and in somber memory of those killed, I have to ask when we are going to start holding these universities and other schools accountable.

When are we going to recognize that someone like this shooter, with no criminal history, can do something so evil, and allow our students and professors to take charge of their own safety?

When are we going to point out that Illinois legislators are culpable? They have removed the option for law-abiding citizens to do anything but phone 911 and wait helplessly?

When are we going to push for the right to defend ourselves, our families, our brethren? When will we INSIST on having the CHOICE to defend ourselves?

I'm disgusted at any university administration and any legislature that does not permit self-defense.

Unless you mandate everyone who carries a gun get professional weapons training, we will return to the Wild West.
And where and how do you place "limits" on what type of weapons.
Hand guns, long guns, single shot, three shot, fully automatic military style, what caliber et al ?
And even pros get into trouble.
A few weeks ago in White Plains, NY an off duty, undercover officer was disarmed during an arrest and while picking up his weapon he either disregarded or did not hear warnings from other on duty officers. He was shot and killed.
The four officers involved in the shooting were doing what they trained to do; serve and protect.
It was rush hour; hundreds of people in area.
Just as the officers on campus did. They were there within minutes. And event was over within minutes.
The students seem to have done the right thing; get out of the way and get out of building.
Just how many college students do you know who have had professional weapons training?
I know one; a Brother who was a police officer.

While in Whitefish, MT a few years ago I thought I was in Dodge City.
I saw six shooters everywhere.

This kind of argument ends up being much like argument over death penalty.

How about if we just stay on topic of event here.
We can start a new,different thread on gun laws.
As well as a thread in R/M about guns in chapter houses.

[jon1856]

Found this link on CBS New site.
For campus newspaper:
http://www.northernstar.info/

[BetteDavisEyes]

According to the Sigma Kappa National Website, 2 of our sisters were in fact harmed. There is a letter from the Gamma Zeta chapter posted on the main site.

[texas*princess]

i can't believe this. it's so sad that it is not even safe to go to school

[jon1856]

News updates-a few interesting ones:
Five lives full of promise ended in rampage

Young victims included Army veteran, violinist, aspiring teacher

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23186319

College shooter's deadly rampage baffles friends

Kazmierczak, 27, stopped taking meds; police search for girlfriend

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23171567

University shooter interested in 'peace and social justice'

• <LI class=cnnHiliteHeader _extended="true">Story Highlights <LI _extended="true">NEW: Shooter was "committed student, extremely respectful," school adviser says
  <LI _extended="true">He "always paid on time, never a noise problem," ex-landlord says
  <LI _extended="true">Paper says shooter's interests included political violence, peace, social justice
  <LI _extended="true">Classroom killer shot five people to death, wounded 16 others Thursday
  http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/15/uni...ect/index.html<LI _extended="true"><LI _extended="true">Company: Gunman, Virginia Tech shooter used same Web dealer
  • <LI class=cnnHiliteHeader _extended="true">Story Highlights <LI _extended="true">NEW: The same company operates a Web site patronized by both gunmen
    <LI _extended="true">Three shooting victims remain in critical condition
    <LI _extended="true">Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich orders flags flown at half-staff throughout the state
    <LI _extended="true">Police chief: People close to gunman say he had become "erratic"

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/15/uni...ef=mpstoryview

[LPIDelta]

Originally Posted by DGTess

Grateful that most of the students at NIU are uninjured, and in somber memory of those killed, I have to ask when we are going to start holding these universities and other schools accountable.

When are we going to recognize that someone like this shooter, with no criminal history, can do something so evil, and allow our students and professors to take charge of their own safety?

When are we going to point out that Illinois legislators are culpable? They have removed the option for law-abiding citizens to do anything but phone 911 and wait helplessly?

When are we going to push for the right to defend ourselves, our families, our brethren? When will we INSIST on having the CHOICE to defend ourselves?

I'm disgusted at any university administration and any legislature that does not permit self-defense.

Tess-- I am actually coming around to your way of thinking. Last semester, some students at the university where I worked wanted to see a change in policy to allow students to carry (legally acquired and permitted) guns on campus, in light of what happened at Virginia Tech. Today I read something that basically said that most gunmen know if they visit a college/university campus, they know that there likely won't be any resistance. But, if they know people carry there, they may think twice. After all, you rarely hear of gun shows being the target of a gunman.

Yes, I still worry about sick, immature or stupid people with weapons BUT laws don't stop those people from doing what they intend. I don't know--I find it so sad that we keep feeling these losses, and I am out of ideas about how to address it without allowing people to arm themselves.

[SWTXBelle]

FYI - the Luby's massacre in Killeen was a major factor in the the passage of the concealed carry law in Texas.

And I can't imagine the pain of those parents - and fellow students, faculty and staff.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by LPIDelta

Tess-- I am actually coming around to your way of thinking. Last semester, some students at the university where I worked wanted to see a change in policy to allow students to carry (legally acquired and permitted) guns on campus, in light of what happened at Virginia Tech. Today I read something that basically said that most gunmen know if they visit a college/university campus, they know that there likely won't be any resistance. But, if they know people carry there, they may think twice. After all, you rarely hear of gun shows being the target of a gunman.

School shootings are still a rarity.

If legislators make gun toting students legal and a potential nonrarity, there may be an increase in gun violence. For every student who claims to want a gun just in case a psycho starts to shoot, there will be a student who has a gun because an instructor pissed them off or because they have been hurt in some way. Let's not increase the gun availability for potential psychos or encourage Rambo students who want to defend campus. There aren't and won't be enough safety measures at schools to account for nonlaw enforcement agents legally having guns on campuses and in classrooms.

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

School shootings are still a rarity.

If legislators make gun toting students legal and a potential nonrarity, there may be an increase in gun violence. For every student who claims to want a gun just in case a psycho starts to shoot, there will be a student who has a gun because an instructor pissed them off or because they have been hurt in some way. Let's not increase the gun availability for potential psychos or encourage Rambo students who want to defend campus. There aren't and won't be enough safety measures at schools to account for nonlaw enforcement agents legally having guns on campuses and in classrooms.

Replace "student" with "citizen" and "campus" or "school" with "Earth". Students who are over 21, have passed the background checks (two - one for the gun purchase and a second for the permit), have taken the required training, and have mentally prepared themselves to carry are permitted to carry on the sidewalk outside the campus, but not across some invisible line.

You can see how well current "policies" and laws work.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by DGTess

Replace "student" with "citizen" and "campus" or "school" with "Earth". Students who are over 21, have passed the background checks (two - one for the gun purchase and a second for the permit), have taken the required training, and have mentally prepared themselves to carry are permitted to carry on the sidewalk outside the campus, but not across some invisible line.

You can see how well current "policies" and laws work.

There's no need to replace anything with anything. Students do not need to carry guns to colleges and universities just like employees do not need to carry guns to work if their jobs do not require gun access.

All this about background checks, training, and mental preparation is a theoretical assumption. In real life, it does not and will not work like that.

Current policies and laws work quite well. School shootings are still a rarity and are not a result of failed gun laws. Some of the general public is just scared now because school shootings have hit too close to home and that fear sensationalizes the issue. I look back to what happened when terrorized citizens bought guns in the 1990s because drug dealers had them (and used them). But gun carrying citizens did not reduce the violence in drug and violence-infested neighborhoods. It increased it, which is one reason why law enforcement began gun buyback programs.

Anyway, none of this matters because students, faculty, and staff in most areas will never be allowed to have guns around or on campuses. That's the reality of the matter.

[DeltAlum]

Agree with Chaos.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

There's no need to replace anything with anything. Students do not need to carry guns to colleges and universities just like employees do not need to carry guns to work if their jobs do not require gun access.

All this about background checks, training, and mental preparation is a theoretical assumption. In real life, it does not and will not work like that.

Current policies and laws work quite well. School shootings are still a rarity and are not a result of failed gun laws. Some of the general public is just scared now because school shootings have hit too close to home and that fear sensationalizes the issue. I look back to what happened when terrorized citizens bought guns in the 1990s because drug dealers had them (and used them). But gun carrying citizens did not reduce the violence in drug and violence-infested neighborhoods. It increased it, which is one reason why law enforcement began gun buyback programs.

Anyway, none of this matters because students, faculty, and staff in most areas will never be allowed to have guns around or on campuses. That's the reality of the matter.

Why shouldn't students who can carry guns almost everywhere else...have to abandon that right to pursue higher education. We not only fail to extend that right to college campuses, we advertise that the people gathered on those campuses are unable to defend themselves.

You're right, we shouldn't react to the school shootings by allowing campus carry. We should allow campus carry regardless. Hear a lot of stories about legally carrying citizens killing people at restaurants where they get in a dispute with their server? How about people carrying legally in general? I'll answer that for you, no, you don't.

People aren't going to get licensed to carry so they can pull a gun on a professor they don't like. If they're willing to break that law (murder, brandishing a weapon), they probably don't care about getting in trouble for having a gun on campus in the first place. Thus lies the absurdity of such arguments. People who are going to break the law aren't going to follow campus gun regulations. They already don't. Those who do and are going to follow the law are those who are caught defenseless by those who don't respect "gun free zones."

I don't think campus carry will solve the world's problems. What it will do is keep law-abiding students from being defenseless against those who have no respect for the law in the first place.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

We not only fail to extend that right to college campuses, we advertise that the people gathered on those campuses are unable to defend themselves.

Correct and that's why university and city officials are required to provide security measures. If they aren't doing a good job, force them to hear your voice and do better. Many colleges and universities made a lot of changes after VTech.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

...they probably don't care about getting in trouble for having a gun on campus in the first place.

Indeed and telling them that they aren't breaking the law by doing so is a facilitating factor that increases criminal opportunities.

ETA: I'm typing about guns on campuses. I have no problem with gun permits as long as people aren't carrying guns where the law forbids (i.e. schools, certain places of employment, etc.--the law forbids it for a reason). I don't want to get into a general "right to bear arms" discussion because I don't see this specific topic as being about the general "right to bear arms."

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I don't think campus carry will solve the world's problems. What it will do is keep law-abiding students from being defenseless against those who have no respect for the law in the first place.

So who is going to train these wannabe defenders of the Universe? Shooting a human is way different than shooting a board at a gun range or a deer.

Answer: No one. Gun toting students will be the same as gun owning home owners...scared and susceptible to having their guns taken from them and used against them. The average gun advocate may say they have a gun to defend themselves but they really don't expect to have to defend themselves. Plus many with gun permits, particularly in the South, are using it for hunting and that's why they are such gun advocates.

Not to mention that having the guns reduces the potential for conflicts to be resolved without gunfire. Are students allowed to shoot as the potential assailant is walking into the area or walking out of the area (with their backs turned)? For instance, we have established laws for homeowner gun use that are still broken. Imagine what would happen when "defending our property/ourselves" includes untrained students defending themselves and college campuses--you will be unable to retain a lot of student, faculty, and staff if that is allowed.

But it won't be allowed so, again, this is all a theoretical debate. People with gun permits will still have to leave their guns at home or in their car, parked the legally mandated miles away from campus.