trouble ahead?

[BaylorBean]

Very well said!

Originally posted by James
For this discussion to be more profitable we would have to define what we are talking about better.

Brotherhood and sisterhood are words we throw out there a lot, but don't necessarily have the same meaning to everyone thats hearing them.

Think of the term Family Values when tossed around by politicians.

A very diverse audience will define that term to themselves in different ways, but everyone in the audience will think they have strong family values and would be offended as hell if someone else cast doubt on them or criticised them.

That brings us to our current dicussion. I think we can agree that at its most basic, brotherhood and sisterhood could be defined as the comraderie between members of a group.

When we are judging it we are talking about the intensity of that comraderie, that bond between people.

We are speaking about an intangible that goes beyond simple friendship into feelings based on shared identity, tasks and mission.

Judging that sense of comraderie or espirit de corps between people is difficult. Its also unique both to the group and the situation.

So for someone to state that a large group has less brotherhood or sisterhood than a small group is as illogical as saying a smaller group will have more comradeship than a larger one.

They are just flip sides of the same false statement.

However, it does give a starting point to a better discussion: Namely what are the signs of a lack of tight sisterhood and brotherhood, What are the signs of a strong one, and what can be done to make a group tighter?

[g41965]

I have to come down on Mr. Conard's side, extremly large chapters make me queasy, my chapter varied in size from 50-85 members during the four years I was active.
I don't know if fraternities really are meant to have 150-200 members at one time. I think a strong 80-90 man chapter is optimal.
As for sororities I'll defer to the ladies.

I would vote to limit any one pledge class to 25-30 members,

[AEPhiGamma]

Okay, my sorority has 20 members, yes ONLY 20. We're still a colony because we need 30 to recieve our chapter. Honestly, I LOVE having such a small sorority because we know eachother extremely well and we will stand up for eachother. My friend who is in Zeta Tau Alpha has a nm class of 40, which is huge at this university. I mean, I would love to have a sorority house and have lots of AEPhis running around, but I don't. When I did formal rush in August, the girls always said, you will find a house that FITS YOU. I think they were right. If you can take living in a house with 99 others girls or guys, good, then do it and if you can't, then find a smaller frat or sorority that you get along withy it's members. It's about quality and not quantity. we are just as proud as the larger sororities! I am lucky that I know all of my sisters as well as I do.
okay. . . .I'm done. . .

Cheers
Liz

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by shadokat


As for diversity, I've seen some of those southern composites, and 250 girls does not diversity make, sorry!

I was clearly talking about factors other than racial diversity in my post. That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. But we've had this discussion on GC before -- "diversity" does not simply apply to race, although it has come to be used as such by some people.

I have never seen a chapter of more than 50 girls that was not "diverse" in terms of personality. I HAVE seen chapters smaller than that that I would consider "not diverse" in terms of personality. (However, of course, I have seen many smaller chapters which are diverse as well.) The numbers game just works in their favor. It's not hard, even at small schools, to find 20 girls with similar personalities and backgrounds. It's a lot harder to find 150.

To judge whether or not a chapter is "diverse" based on composite pictures is ridiculous. You could have a chapter full of girls who look identical and could still have totally different upbringings.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous that people from smaller chapters feel the need to come in here and make veiled attacks on larger chapters. I liked being from a medium-large chapter. I'm sure many of you liked being in smaller chapters. I'm sure many of my sisters at Ole Miss like being in a HUGE chapter. If you liked your small chapters so much, why do you need to get so defensive about larger chapters and accuse them of being "not diverse" simply because 3/4ths of them are blonde? I've found that the chapter size people seem to like most is the one that their chapter was. If being in a 200-person chapter was so horrible, don't you think that people IN 200-people chapters would dislike it? Yet most of them seem to like it. While there are down sides to being in a large chapter (may not know all of your sisters as well), there are also the up sides that (more people to hang out with, more people to share responsibilities).

[BlondeGurl]

Originally posted by TylerG18
I have to say that you can have true brotherhood/sisterhood with large number groups, but you have to build slowly in my opinion... My advice to anyone who wants to go big...is build a strong pledge program first and establish an identity for yourselves. The time to decide the direction of the chapter is before you go big, not after. Make sure that the people who decide the direction of the chapter are going to be there for a significant amount of time and are going to follow through and take leadership positions. If you wait until you're big then you have all these people with their own opinions about what the chapter needs to be. I'm not saying that those opinions aren't valid, but the most important thing to have is direction. What that direction is doesn't matter, as long as everyone works together towards a common goal. That to me is what true brotherhood/sisterhood is about.

Originally posted by AGDee
I am going to ignore all the flaming posts and simply say this:

There are approximately 138,000 Alpha Gams and each time I meet a new one, no matter the circumstance, I feel a certain instant bond that is sisterhood.

Dee

I completely agree with these statements! Although I am not an AGD I feel the same way about my sisters. I think it was very well put. I also come from a chapter of 60. Each pledge class is about 20 (on average). I was in the Alpha class of my chapter; therefore, I feel i know what it means to literaly build your new member program. Our chapter tested their program out on my pledge class. I believe the New Member period sets a tone for the rest of your sorority/fraternity experience. If you dont have a good foundation there is no where to build up from.
I think that the sororities that have 150+ members are amazing. while they might not know each and every member personaly the bond of sisterhood/brotherhood is still there.
And finaly I think that all this talk about diversity is ridiculous. When you are RUSHing one of the first things you hear is that it is a mutual selection process and to Go where you feel the most compfortable. You are gonig to feel the most compfortable around people LIKE you. So generaly you choose a sorority where the girls are LIKE you. So of course you might not have the same experiences as each member, but you generaly are similar to each member and hold similar values. Of course having the same values or beliefs has nothing to do with ahving the same race or anything else of that sort.
Anyway, just thought I would put in my 2 cents.

[AEPhiGamma]

I wasn't attacking larger chapters, I was just saying that some people like larger ones and some people like smaller ones. i don't think anyone has the right to attack the size of a chapter. If it works, it works. More power to them.

Cheers
Liz

[UKDaisy]

Originally posted by Tom Earp

As far as LARGE Groups, I for one agree, I feel that I want to know My Brothers, not be the biggest of the big and not know someone.

Yep it is about right, 20 % do the work and 80 % dont do squat, they are just a damn number to build memebership! They know their only Little Qlicks of Sweetys!

I was and still am a member of a smaller service sorority *around 35 members* and a new pledge of Kappa Delta *around 120-130 members*. So I'm beginning to see the ups and downs of both sides.
But I have to disagree with the smaller groups being WAY MORE "SISTERLY" than the larger groups. Maybe its being stopped a thousand times on campus by over a hundred of your sisters, or maybe its the huge phone list of girls you can call or that call you *tonight i got 10 phone calls just asking how i was doing*, or maybe its the fact that I can sit down at 5pm for house dinner and still not want to leave at 10pm.
I personally feel that in smaller groups you have:
a.) more gossip floating around. It is much too easy to know what so and so did and pass it around to all 30 members than it is to pass it around to 150!
b.) Tom I think it is unfair to say that the 20% and 80% ratio works only in smaller chapters. There were about four dedicated girls other than the officers that worked their lil' butts off to make the sorority look good! And let me remind you, that this is a service organization. We were not about building numbers! We were about service! So I think if you believe the 20/80 ratio works in larger chapters, you have to consider that it prolly works for smaller chapters as well.
c.) Smaller chapters allow members to point blame. There are only so many girls, so many problems, and at one point in time a sister will point the blame finger on you. This causes so much tension! I can not tell you how stressed I was all year last year as President.
d.) I, personally feel that in a smaller chapter you have "too many chiefs and not enough engines*totally misspelled but you get my point*" Although you have many sisters who want to lead - you'll also have sisters who decide to take over things, or backstab to get things, or decide that they have the correct way of thinking and you do not.

Excuse me for rambling - I'm running on no sleep. IMO its a personal opinion whether you like smaller or larger chapters. To say that one is better overall is not cool and not something that you can honestly back up with solid proof. So why say it? Discuss it, yes. But go on a rampage about it and assume your right, no.
Just b/c I like the larger chapter house doesn't give anybody the right to call me a dumb a**. Please, if you read my other posts there are plenty of other reasons for that. So if this discussion is continued can we lay off the personal attacks?
Cause I"m not really good at that.

[PhoenixAzul]

I have no experience with girls from large chapters, so there's no room for me to speak, really. What I consider a "large" chapter here is 60-70 TOTAL active members. A pledge class of more that 20 is considered GIGANTIC here. But that's just the size of our university speaking. I think that we have to step back. Students at large schools are used to dealing with things in terms of their college numbers. They're comfortable with things in the size of their school, and that's great. It doesn't behoove them to have active chapters of 16, those chapters are better fitted at smaller schools. Ya see what I'm saying?

[lifesaver]

Erik, its this simple; you don’t have to understand ANYTHING about how a sorority with 200+ women works. It aint your business. Unless you are planning on getting a sex change operation, getting alumni initiation and then becoming a sorority advisor, focus on being a good alum for YOUR group. I doubt the NPC will be contacting you anytime soon to write a study on how YOU think THEY should handle their business.

LOL at the three things we’ll never hear Erik Conrad say:

1) I really don’t know.

2) I don’t really have an opinion one way or the other.

3) Someone might think this post comes across as rude / inappropriate / condescending / confusing / bizarre. I’d better rephrase it.


BTW: Ty, Unfortunately to hear Erik talk on GC, I think he believes he really does speak for ALL of TKE. Thats why so many people respond to him as such.

[Erik P Conard]

As for apathy, I'm neither for it or against it. Sorry...
Do not plan to advise/join any sorority, and I'm gonna retire from
the carping of the 250 member chapter...have it your way. And I
personally feel that few more "northern" outfits will be heading to
Ole Miss or anywhere that requires a thousand alums, a few million bucks, and a "good southern reputation." But, if'n you've
a hankerin' to do so, have at it.
But, the naivete is incredible.
Old age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill.
We live in interesting times.

[kddani]

you know Erik, you could accomplish a lot by simply apologizing for being rude and name-calling.

And again, I notice that you have provided no proof of your accusations, such as your claim that most chapter are under the all student GPA.

No proof to back up your claims I guess

[shadokat]

Obviously you missed the post later where 33girl defined what I was really trying to say. Again, apologies for not being the wordsmith of the day.

Originally posted by sugar and spice
I was clearly talking about factors other than racial diversity in my post. That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. But we've had this discussion on GC before -- "diversity" does not simply apply to race, although it has come to be used as such by some people.

I have never seen a chapter of more than 50 girls that was not "diverse" in terms of personality. I HAVE seen chapters smaller than that that I would consider "not diverse" in terms of personality. (However, of course, I have seen many smaller chapters which are diverse as well.) The numbers game just works in their favor. It's not hard, even at small schools, to find 20 girls with similar personalities and backgrounds. It's a lot harder to find 150.

To judge whether or not a chapter is "diverse" based on composite pictures is ridiculous. You could have a chapter full of girls who look identical and could still have totally different upbringings.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous that people from smaller chapters feel the need to come in here and make veiled attacks on larger chapters. I liked being from a medium-large chapter. I'm sure many of you liked being in smaller chapters. I'm sure many of my sisters at Ole Miss like being in a HUGE chapter. If you liked your small chapters so much, why do you need to get so defensive about larger chapters and accuse them of being "not diverse" simply because 3/4ths of them are blonde? I've found that the chapter size people seem to like most is the one that their chapter was. If being in a 200-person chapter was so horrible, don't you think that people IN 200-people chapters would dislike it? Yet most of them seem to like it. While there are down sides to being in a large chapter (may not know all of your sisters as well), there are also the up sides that (more people to hang out with, more people to share responsibilities).

[TylerG18]

Originally posted by kddani
You're new to the site and don't know the history of Erik and Tom.

Both constantly accuse all of us youngin's of being a poor representation of our respective GLOs.

I am merely pointing out to them that they are poorly representing their GLOs by being rude and condescending to all of us. I in no way said he was representative of all Tekes. A case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Gotcha.

[33girl]

Originally posted by PhoenixAzul
Students at large schools are used to dealing with things in terms of their college numbers. They're comfortable with things in the size of their school, and that's great.

Listen to our young yinzer friend .

And H, I think it's ridiculous when people (not you) from LARGE chapters make thinly veiled attacks on SMALL chapters. (There's a few in this very thread) It's gone both ways on here, so everyone needs to realize that the way your school does it isn't the way it is everywhere. Unless you want to live in a bubble.

[Erik P Conard]

KDDani...it does not take a rocket scientist to be aware of the
declining grades of the greeks. The disappearance of the
'Gentleman's C' merely enhances the plummeting. And most of
the HQs keep tallies of chapter grades. Perhaps yours doesn't.
It is has been widely printed in newspapers, in the Chronicle of
Higher Education, in NIC publications, passim.
Where on earth have you been?
Get back in traction.