Gunman Opens Fire During "The Dark Knight Rises"

[sigmagirl2000]

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

This is from a report by Josh Sugarman. He is the executive director of the VPC, an anti-gun group. I will not quote information from the NRA because it is biased. According to Sugarman's article in 05/12, there are 10 states where 'gun related deaths' exceed motor vehicle deaths (not motor vehicle related deaths) Arizona: 856 gun deaths, 809 motor vehicle deaths. A motor vehicle 'related' death would be if a car fell off blocks and crushed the guy working on it. If it rolled through a parking lot and ran someone over. If someone started the car and sat in it while in a closed garage committing suicide. Those numbers are probably small, but they are tabulated under other categories, home accident, suicide, etc. What Sugarman doesn't mention is how many of the gun deaths are suicides. According to the American Foundation of Suicide Prevention 36,909 people committed suicide in 2009 and firearms are used in 50% of suicides.

Firearms are used in more suicides than homicides.
Death by firearms is the fastest growing method of suicide.
Firearms account for 50 percent of all suicides.
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseac...135c3a70de1fda

Sugarman fails to mention that of those 856 deaths, about 425 of them were suicides. He conveniently leaves that out because it doesn't help the issue that he is promoting. So homicide, justifiable homicide, and accidental gun deaths in Arizona are about one half of the motor vehicle death rate.

Do not attempt to equate guns with suicide because the suicide rate in Japan is double that of the US and there are not any guns to speak of in Japan, so claiming that suicide rates are related to a prevelance of guns is simply not true.

However, based on your own evidence. Lives could be saved by stricter gun laws and gun control, regardless of whether they be homicide or suicide, lives could be saved.

[Jeff OTMG]

Originally Posted by sigmagirl2000

However, based on your own evidence. Lives could be saved by stricter gun laws and gun control, regardless of whether they be homicide or suicide, lives could be saved.

Where did you get that guns were have a causal effect on homicide or suicide? I specifically was addressing suicide and showed that absolutely no causal effect based on the complete absence of firearms in Japan yet having a suicide rate DOUBLE that of the US.

As far as homicides go, there are countries with no guns, or very few guns, with homicide rates MUCH higher than here. Remember that we are the third most populous country in the world and have nearly one gun for every man, woman, and child here, about 300 million!!

In 2007 there were 12,632 homicide deaths due to firearms. Let's assume that a different gun was used in each homicide. That is something like a .00004% (that's 4 100,000ths of 1%) misuse of firearms. The only reason that the deaths look large is because there are over 300,000,000 people in US.

Again, from my post, where did you see that my statements supported the idea that gun control would help?

[DGTess]

No one said if someone had a concealed weapon it would have stopped the attack. Only that it might.

With no other defensive weapons in the theater, there was no choice to be made. No one could make a shoot/no-shoot decision. Yet Cinemark posts ALL its theaters so even law-abiding permit holders cannot carry.

Even a flashlight could have blinded the perpetrator.

[DrPhil]

As with many topics, the same thing keeps being said over and over again. about the concealed weapons topic. So here goes....

Sure, a law abiding civilian with a gun (concealed or not) could have said "oh shit, I get to use my gun" and (insert potential outcome). Thank goodness that all discourse and policy are not based on what could possibly happen based on a small probability. The probability of otherwise law abiding civilians with concealed weapons actually fighting off (wielding a gun with prayerful hopes that the offender will change his/her mind is not the same thing as fighting off--a truly law abiding citizen is not looking forward to using a gun on a person) a motivated offender is minimal. That is neither pro-gun nor anti-gun, it is what has been studied by researchers and community activitists who want people to base their opinions on reality rather than fantasy, fear, and wannabe Billy Badassness.

Anywayyyyyyyyyyyy, this offender will not become "famous" like he hoped that he would. God bless the victims and their loved ones. Thankfully such tragedies, although unforeseen and heinous, are rare.

[DrPhil]

And many policies and laws are a result of something happening that spark outrage. Theaters are now looking into better security just as airports improved security after September 11. I remember how lenient airports were before September 11--my friends who were not flying could hang out with me at the terminal, for goodness sake--and I thank God that September 11 was not used to support concealed weapons that could bypass airport security. Likewise, this may mark a time where people will have to suck it up if theaters improve security. There will be complaints but such is life. I damn sure want increased security if more people (both motivated offenders and supposedly law abiding citizens--since we do not know which is which until after people act out) want to carry their guns on their hips.

[carnation]

I wish that no citizens had guns but:

I taught in a low-security corrections institution for almost 20 years. Before I taught there, I thought that passing a law against citizens having guns would work. Now I know that there are so many ways to get a gun, legally and illegally, that I realize it could never work.

During class breaks, the men would be casually discussing their guns and where they got them (btw, none of these men had committed violent crimes) and for years, I would ask if they thought that a law could stop the general population from having guns. They would fall over laughing. It seems that making gun ownership illegal would hardly make a dent in the criminal world's access to guns. And these men had never used a gun in a crime! Can you imagine how much easier it is for the really rotten people to get one?

I don't think that the hunters of the country would go along with giving up their guns either and of course if someone could still get a rifle, he could do some serious damage to people as well. I've always felt that Americans have so many guns because our ancestors who conquered the frontier had to have them and owning guns is more acceptable here than in some other countries.

Like most of you, I wish that people who had no business with guns didn't have them. After working in the CI, though, I can see that that will never happen.

[SydneyK]

I'm not convinced that there wasn't at least one movie-goer concealing anyway. I know for sure my FIL carries practically everywhere - a Cinemark sign wouldn't persuade him to leave his gun in the car. The few times he's visited me on campus, he's always been carrying, despite the obvious NO WEAPONS ON CAMPUS signs. I know he's not the only person who disregards such signs.

So - I think people are going to carry whether they're 'allowed' to or not. This goes for both criminals and CCW alike. I think there's a strong possibility that someone had access to a weapon in the theater, but chose not to shoot it. I think there's a time and place for CCW discussions, but I don't think this incident is the best backdrop for such a discussion.

[DrPhil]

Excellent points, SydneyK.

[sigmagirl2000]

Interesting chart:

Quote:
Alaska: 104 gun deaths, 84 motor vehicle deaths
Arizona: 856 gun deaths, 809 motor vehicle deaths
Colorado: 583 gun deaths, 565 motor vehicle deaths
Indiana: 735 gun deaths, 715 motor vehicle deaths
Michigan: 1,095 gun deaths, 977 motor vehicle deaths
Nevada: 406 gun deaths, 255 motor vehicle deaths
Oregon: 417 gun deaths, 394 motor vehicle deaths
Utah: 260 gun deaths, 256 motor vehicle deaths
Virginia: 836 gun deaths, 827 motor vehicle deaths
Washington: 623 gun deaths, 580 motor vehicle deaths

Interesting to see how this translates to red and blue states. I also had to idea that Michigan was so populated..... (or if it isn't, there are just a lot of gun and motor vehicle deaths there).


ETA: Since I'm a number/ math nerd, this was interesting to me. DC is high up there with the guns, as are the Virgin Islands (whoa!)

This makes me think that being in Massachusetts I have a good chance of not being killed by vehicle or gun. Now I just need to avoid the coyotes that hang out by my car early in the morning when I'm going to work....

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by sigmagirl2000

Interesting to see how this translates to red and blue states. I also had to idea that Michigan was so populated..... (or if it isn't, there are just a lot of gun and motor vehicle deaths there).

And this doesn't surprise me, at all.

[AnotherKD]

Originally Posted by sigmagirl2000;

ETA: Since I'm a number/ math nerd, this was interesting to me. DC is high up there with the guns, as are the Virgin Islands (whoa!)

Yeah, DC has guns everywhere. And, even though it is technically legal to own one after the Heller ruling, it is logistically impossible due to restrictions that can't be met.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by sigmagirl2000

Interesting chart:



Interesting to see how this translates to red and blue states. I also had to idea that Michigan was so populated..... (or if it isn't, there are just a lot of gun and motor vehicle deaths there).


ETA: Since I'm a number/ math nerd, this was interesting to me. DC is high up there with the guns, as are the Virgin Islands (whoa!)

This makes me think that being in Massachusetts I have a good chance of not being killed by vehicle or gun. Now I just need to avoid the coyotes that hang out by my car early in the morning when I'm going to work....

Originally Posted by AnotherKD

Yeah, DC has guns everywhere. And, even though it is technically legal to own one after the Heller ruling, it is logistically impossible due to restrictions that can't be met.

This data is from 2009, the most recent available, before the overturn of the DC gun ban. Now, I suspect that we will see their numbers rise in the coming years.

As to the supposition that you cannot decrease gun deaths, that is ridiculous. Common sense regulations, better education...the same things we did with car safety will decrease the gun death rate. The number of deaths are #1 not all intentional #2 preventable. If gun enthusiasts look at these stats and can't see ANYTHING wrong, that is a problem. There is a solution to every problem, but the solution to this one is not more guns.

[Jeff OTMG]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I suspect that we will see their numbers rise in the coming years.

That should be interesting since all the shootings in DC were done with illegal guns. So the people who had them were criminals. Imagine that, criminals committig crime. I actually had a guy try to tell me that the high firearm death rate in DC was due to the weak gun laws in Virginia. I simply asked, why the firearm homicide rate in Virginia wasn't higher than in DC? Someday people will realize that it is the person, not the guns.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

As to the supposition that you cannot decrease gun deaths, that is ridiculous. Common sense regulations, better education...the same things we did with car safety will decrease the gun death rate.

You are exactly right and that is what has been happening for years. The firearms death rate has been dropping and improved widespread safety training, concealed carry permit training, the increase in IPSC, SASS, and IDPA competitions have all helped to that end.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

There is a solution to every problem, but the solution to this one is not more guns.

I don't believe that there is a solution to EVERY problem. There may be a solution to every problem at some time in the future, but not immediately.

[dukedg]

Originally Posted by sigmagirl2000

Interesting chart:

ETA: Since I'm a number/ math nerd, this was interesting to me. DC is high up there with the guns, as are the Virgin Islands (whoa!)

Great chart -- thanks for sharing. I definitely find it more helpful to compare things on a per capita basis, it's more apples-to-apples for me.

[SWTXBelle]

RE: Auto/gun deaths - does any place break it down per capita? That would be a better way to evaluate the data than just the raw numbers. I'd also be interested in knowing the number of registered vehicles vs. the number of guns before I decided how important/unimportant the information is.