No place for average PNMs?

[Benzgirl]

Originally Posted by Blondie93

First, my disclaimer. My daughter is not yet in college. Actually, she is only 10 months old. But, despite that, I do have hopes and dreams for her, so I can relate to a mom wanting her "baby girl" to be happy.

hijack -
we need updated pictures of DD.
/hijack

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by APhiAnna

To be fair too, what you are hearing from nervous freshmen PNMs is never going to be true. Girls in our own chapters have a hard enough time keeping it straight. If you ask any PNM at any school that suffered even minor cuts, I guarantee you they will tell you that they just went through the most competitive rush that XYZ University has EVER had. EVER. Obviously top tier ABC may have had a very good idea of who they want to pledge, but I guarantee you that, no matter what campus, there are many chapters who are much more open-minded. And really, do you honestly believe that "XYZ who hasn't made quota in 3 years" started the rush process saying "these 100 girls are the only ones we are interested in bidding and if you aren't already in-state and BFF with at least 3 girls then we will cut you?" No. They are going to be open-minded about EVERY PNM, but they are still going to want women that promote their chapter in a positive way so they can grow. So it's probably not that every single recruitment chair at every single chapter had it out for your since Day #1.

Just go give an example, these are reasons why I, my sisters or my friends at other schools/chapters released women that would fall into "good on paper, good picture, etc" categories. If you saw their resume and their Facebook profile you may have been excited about pledging them until they did one of the following:
* Were you a complainer? "OMG, it's soooo hot...", "Haha sorry I'm sooo tired", "Yeah my roommate is kind of weird and lame", "The dorm food is sooo gross"...
* Did you rest on being shy and think that the burden was on the chapters to realize you'd be more outgoing starting three weeks in?
* Did you only bother getting recs for what your friend's sister's boyfriend told you were the three best sororities?
* Were you rude or disinterested to some chapters during the first round because you "so knew" you were going top tier? Top tier may not have wanted you, but would anybody else want a sister who acted bored either?
* Did you wear clothing in a color that made your normally beautiful skin look pasty? Was your dress silhouette more appropriate to 2003 than 2009?
* Did you talk about how much money you have? Nothing can make somebody look poorer than that...
* Did you only ask questions about the chapters GPA and philanthropy and housing points? We wanted a sister to have fun with too.
* Did you mention you are going to get your sororities letters tattooed on your ass? (This REALLY was brought up to somebody I know during recruitment in EVERY chapter the PNM visited).
* Did you bring up God every sentence to an atheist? Did you roll your eyes when a sister mentioned that XYZ also has a Bible study?
* Did some of your more questionable high school nights end up becoming known to sisters or alumni? Or did you even go so far as to leave the topless kegstand photo on Facebook?
* Were you an "eager beaver" who was trying too hard to be bubbly and "hug attacked" every other member you met?

There are SO many reasons why you may have had a bad rush even if you were average looking with a great GPA.

At the end of it though, blaming the sororities for your mistake will hinder you in life. Rush is a great way of seeing how you do in first impressions. These first impressions will affect your first dates, your job interviews, your impression on coworkers/in laws/professors, meeting with your prospective country club/arts guild/book club/PTA/intramural team/church/synagogue/children's friends parents...and maybe even the second/third/fourth time you rush. It would behoove you to not place the blame on others and sit down and analyze why you may have made some mistakes and how you can correct them for the next time first impressions matter.

Originally Posted by kkgdgmom

I beg to defer - my daughter was just cut from all houses while rushing at a Big Ten University, she is an out of state student. She was a legacy at KKG, DG, Theta, and AXO...talk about devasting, her sister is currently a "sitting "sister at KKG" and she assumed that she was a shoo-in - she is a pretty (an Elite model), smart (at the University on a full scholarship for being a National Merit Scholar) and has a many hours logged in community service. She was also very familiar with playing the game of looking put together and telling the girls that she was very interested in their house. She did not mention many of her accomplishments, hoping the girls would like her for her personality. With a full slate of legacy recommendations, she was interviewed by all of the executive committee members - who told her that they couldn't wait to see her back the next day, only to cut her. Although she does not drink, she is not "preachy" about what others choose to do. She was looking for an opportunity for community service, leadership, and a place to belong...only to be shut out, I understand that most colleges conduct rush at the start of the school year in the hopes that girls will have a place to belong, but having been through the middle of the school year rush - I think it is a better option - if a girls does not make it in it does not lead the depression and disappointment. She is looking forward to finding a place to make her mark at her school, but it will not be in the greek community...she did not understand how all of the legacies on her dorm floor were asked to pledge and she was not. AphiAnna you obviously do not have any daughters.

First of all, I am sorry for your daughter and the fact that she didn't find her "home". I would encourage her to look into COB opportunities if they are available.

That being said, I don't see how her experience would give you reason to completely disagree with APhiAnna's entire post (or assume that she doesn't have children).

As has been said (to other parents/friends of PNMs), you weren't there with your daughter during recruitment, so you really don't know the reasons why she was cut. Maybe it was because she fell under one of the bulleted points that APhiAnna mentioned, or maybe she just slipped through the cracks. But APhiAnna's post simply said that to blame a poor recruitment outcome on the sororities is the wrong thing to do. The system may be flawed in some ways, but that's not the fault of the individual sororities.

[annabella]

Originally Posted by kkgdgmom

She was also very familiar with playing the game of looking put together and telling the girls that she was very interested in their house.

Girls who try too hard are a huge turn-off.

Also it sounds like you're either a huge B or oblivious to the fact that your daughter is.

[DubaiSis]

Originally Posted by kkgdgmom

I beg to defer - my daughter was just cut from all houses while rushing at a Big Ten University, she is an out of state student. She was a legacy at KKG, DG, Theta, and AXO...talk about devasting, her sister is currently a "sitting "sister at KKG" and she assumed that she was a shoo-in - she is a pretty (an Elite model), smart (at the University on a full scholarship for being a National Merit Scholar) and has a many hours logged in community service.

There's a serious gap in this story. I'd like to know at what point she was cut all the way out. I don't think there's a Big 10 campus that doesn't have at least 1 sorority that is struggling enough to take virtually anyone who meets the criteria. Again (and this is said so many times on GC) was she literally cut from every house? At the University of Iowa, all the houses you mentioned are pretty prestigious. But there are at least 2 or 3 chapters who are struggling. The only way she'd have been cut from my chapter, as a for instance, is if she was unbelievably rude. And out of state would have no impact at a Big 10 school. Out of state is far and away too common at those schools to have an impact. If nothing else, someone from an unusual state would have a benefit from being different and memorable.

If she's at a Big 10 school and got cut out, I'd suggest she look at COB, and accept that she's going into a lower tier house. If she's all that, she'll be able to make an impact on the chapter immediately.

[Zillini]

KKGDGMom, I'm sorry your daughter is hurt and disappointed. I understand why you are feeling the same way for her.

Obviously I was not there but more importantly please keep in mind you were not there either. You do not know how well she did or didn't relate to the actives during the parties, nor do you know what happened during the membership selection meetings. Your daughter may be an amazing young woman, but maybe that didn't shine through. Some possible explanations:

Originally Posted by kkgdgmom

-she is an out of state student.

Perhaps nobody knew her very well.

She was a legacy at KKG, DG, Theta, and AXO...talk about devasting, her sister is currently a "sitting "sister at KKG"

By "sitting sister" I assume that means an in house, as in currently active, sister. The other Chapters may have assumed she would go KKG. Fair or not, this is a common assumption with in house sisters. She may have been released because other Chapters thought they had no chance, so why not give that invite to someone who they have a better chance with.

As for why the in house legacy Chapter released her, it happens. Even that is no guarantee. Perhaps your older daughter simply didn't have enough "pull" with the other actives?

I'm also wondering if the older sister invited her to campus to visit last year? This would have given the actives a better chance to get to know her. If she did visit and knew the actives, then perhaps they didn't feel she would fit in.

and she assumed that she was a shoo-in

You can never assume anything. Perhaps she came across as cocky without even realizing it. That can be a real turn off.

she is a pretty (an Elite model), smart (at the University on a full scholarship for being a National Merit Scholar) and has a many hours logged in community service.

I have seen some less competitive Chapters assume because of all these great traits that they have no chance with a PNM. Might as well release her and give that spot to someone who they have a better shot of actually accepting a bid.

She was also very familiar with playing the game of looking put together and telling the girls that she was very interested in their house.

That is quite telling IMO. She viewed it as "playing a game" saying she is interested. Perhaps she did not come across as sincere, at least not sincere enough to overcome some of the other possible issues.

She did not mention many of her accomplishments, hoping the girls would like her for her personality.

Why wouldn't she tell the actives about all the great things she has done and how she could benefit their Chapter? Personality is important, but if a gazillion PNMs have a great personality they will choose those who are the "whole package": great personality, strong resume, strong GPA, etc.

With a full slate of legacy recommendations

Did she have Recs to all the Chapters or just her legacy Chapters?

, she was interviewed by all of the executive committee members

"Interviewed by the Exec Committee"? I'm not sure what that means in a Formal Recruitment setting. Are you saying she was introduced to Exec officers? A lot of Chapters introduce as many PNMs as possible to Exec officers. Again, that is no guarantee of anything.

- who told her that they couldn't wait to see her back the next day, only to cut her.

While saying they want to see her the next day is a Recruitment violation, it too isn't a guarantee. It might have been a honest slip up. It might have been that they truly meant that but it was only the opinion of a few members. A few members can be outvoted by the rest of the Chapter.

Keep in mind, the goal of every Chapter is for every PNM to leave thinking the Chapter loved them. Nobody wants a PNM to feel she is not liked or wanted. Besides as said before, perhaps those actives who recruited her did like her and want her, but there were other PNMs who were liked/wanted more by the whole Chapter. Granted I don't know the membership selection process any other GLO besides my own, but it is safe to say it is a democratic process in that it is a majority decision.

Although she does not drink, she is not "preachy" about what others choose to do.

That's great. Did she convey this to the Chapters? That might have back fired. Talking about alcohol and her opinions is not a good topic during Recruitment no matter what her opinion is.

She was looking for an opportunity for community service, leadership, and a place to belong...only to be shut out

That's great too. However, you stated that she did not talk about her accomplishments. How was the Chapter supposed to know what she has done and what she wants to do if she doesn't tell them? Besides, most PNMs are looking for an opportunity to do all those things as well.

she did not understand how all of the legacies on her dorm floor were asked to pledge and she was not.

You cannot compare one PNMs situation or results to another.

AphiAnna you obviously do not have any daughters.

I don't know that she does or doesn't, do you? Besides, having or not having daughters does not preclude anyone from providing good advice or explanations about Recruitment. The only thing having a daughter can do is provide someone with a better understanding of a parent's pain when their child is in pain. But even those without kids can still relate to that.

[APhiAnna]

Originally Posted by kkgdgmom

AphiAnna you obviously do not have any daughters.

I would hope I don't have any daughters, I'm 21.

[Zillini]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Quota is proportional to the number of PNMs in recruitment.

First off a correction or rather clarification. Quota is proportional to the number of PNMs who attend Pref round, not who participate in Recruitment.

Second, as to why bottom tier (and frankly I hate that phrase as well as the whole concept) Chapters might cut perfectly good PNMs. If Susie Super was released from her dream Chapters and even if she then accepts invites from bottom tiers, she may still get cut. Why? At 18-19 it is really hard to control your emotions and the disappointment she is experiencing may show through. Or perhaps in the early rounds Suzie acted disinterested because she never dreamed that the top tiers would release here. Perhaps the only reason why the bottom tier Chapter didn't cut her because of this was due to the fact that Panhellenic told them they could only release X amount.

Even bottom tier Chapters have standards and more than just GPAs and resumes. They don't want to extend bids to PNMs who really don't want to be a member of their organization because many may end up dropping out.

This is why it is so important for PNMs to not only keep an open mind and be interested in all Chapters. More importantly they need to show it to all the Chapters at every round, not just in the rounds at the Chapters they are left with.

[Benzgirl]

I always laughed at one girl in my chapter that would say, "I'm black-balling any girl that is a name-dropper" and her roommate would follow up with, "I'm black-balling any girl that doesn't drop my name". Of course, the second one was in gest, but I can't say the first one was.

The bottom line is you may never know what you said or did that rubbed someone the wrong way.

[I.C. a Pi Phi]

I think these factors are out of the PNM's control but do happen.

1. At a larger school, when round one consists of 12 parties day 1 and 6 parties day 2. Who do you think are going to be remembered more? The chapter girls who see 12 rounds of girls, then vote, or those who only see 6 rounds of girls?

2. Your last name. If a chapter starts discussion at the beginning of the alphabet, and seven hours later you are at the "w" 's and everyone just wants to go to bed. Or vice versa, the chapter discusses and cuts heavily at the beginning of the alphabet because they are fresh, but seven hours later has significantly less discussion.

These are just random thoughts, but things that can happen. Another reason why there is not only *one* perfect house for each PNM.

[KSUViolet06]

Another thing:

There usually are a couple chapters at a school that EVERY PNM wants to be in.

The truth of the matter is that these top chapters are likely the ones that have to make the heaviest cuts.

I find that the most Average PNM go into recruitment wanting the top chapters that everyone else wants. She likely will say that she sees herself the most in the top groups and feels that she fits best with them.

Only problem is that the top chapters have heavy cuts to make and Average PNM is not going to get an invite. She is typically not as prepared for recruitment as those girls who DO get invites back to Top Chapters.

So she gets cut by Top Chapters, and even though she still has some options, she is upset and feels that she fit best in those, and drops out.

I guess my point is that alot of times, the Average PNM thinks she belongs in a top chapter, not realizing that those chapters an only extend so many invites and are only considering the Top PNMs.

Everybody wants to be an ABC or an XYZ, but everybody is not going to get an invite. It's just part of life.

[AXOrushadvisor]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

In the age of quota and RFM, I am having a hard time understanding how a PNM with nothing “wrong” with her except being out of state and/or not having recs can get cut from ALL chapters at a competitive campus. Note I am NOT talking about a PNM who gets cut by all chapters but one or two.

By nothing “wrong”, I mean this theoretical PNM is simply average (not poor) in the area of grades, involvement, looks, and conversation, and she does not have a reputation issue. Especially at academically competitive universities, the chances of a PNM looking poor on paper are slim because she wouldn't have been admitted to the university in the first place.

Quota is set to optimize the number of PNMs joining chapters and the number of chapters making quota. Quota is proportional to the number of PNMs in recruitment.

With RFM, the “top” chapters are forced to make the steepest cuts the first round, and the “bottom” chapters are advised to make minimal cuts throughout the process, cutting PNMs who do not meet their membership standards (poor grades, poor conversation/personality, poor personal presentation, etc). This optimizes the placement rate.

Even if this theoretical PNM is from out of state and/or does not have recs (read: unknown), “bottom” chapters have the luxury of not being forced to make steep cuts and therefore have time to get to know her through conversation.

Is there no place for a PNM who is average and unknown? I am not talking about “top 6” at UT or “Old Row” at Bama, etc. I know this may be treading into MS territory, but do “bottom” chapters at competitive schools cut PNMs when there seems to be “no reason” (none of the reasons discussed above) to cut her?

If there are a lot of PNMs getting cut for “no reason”, that’s usually when a Panhellenic looks to Extension.

Perhaps the PNMs/mothers of PNMs released by ALL chapters are simply not telling us on GC any “reason” they could have been cut. And it’s also likely that PNMs who get cut from all chapters are overrepresented on GC because those in the know/with connections don’t need to come to GC for information.

Hi Violet. I almost think the new release methods make recruitment more competitive. With the way our school is doing recruitment, these girls get 15 minutes to show who they are during the first round. If your reserved or shy it is really tough to shine through as the top PNM's going through. If you have done any membership selection during the past couple of years you know your releasing PNM's that would make excellent members and it really becomes a numbers game (getting to the invite number panhellenic gives you) more then any thing.

I worked with a "bottom" Chapter and like someone mentioned on here they do release women who are mean and rude to the girls. I have seen PNM's make active women cry because they were so awful. It would be hard to have those women come back. Some "bottom" Chapters like the fact that their Chapters are small- it had the house I worked with split. There was actually a group of women who didn't want to grow and prosper. They felt they joined the Chapter because of the size and it didn't need to change. What I don't understand is "bottom" chapters releasing for grades. I think if I was trying to get numbers up I would take grade exceptions. I have seen Chapters pick up some good women this way.

My niece went through recruitment right after the new release figures were implemented. 4.0, beautiful, good morals and values- really the total package. She had a flawless recruitment until the night before pref where she was dropped by everyone, but 2 houses. I got a call in tears and I told her to stick it out. She did pledged a GREAT group who was in a rebuilding phase, became recruitment chair, made a difference and it is now a top house on campus 4 years later. Her adorable sister came in right behind her. Even though she couldn't see herself in this group at first it has worked out great for her and her sister. There are happy endings

[33girl]

Originally Posted by AXOrushadvisor

What I don't understand is "bottom" chapters releasing for grades. I think if I was trying to get numbers up I would take grade exceptions. I have seen Chapters pick up some good women this way.

If you have less members than everyone else to begin with, the last thing you need is Zelda 0.0 dragging you down even further. This is when you call up HQ and say "which do you want - numbers or grades?"

Coming from a "not top tier" chapter, you'd be amazed at how awful some rushees can be. I won't get into voting detail but there were some women that I just wanted to be able to vote infinity lower than I did because they were so rude. Then of course, if there are girls who didn't get bids and the lower-down chapters didn't take them, all of a sudden the sorority is full of total bitches. (It was OK for the top sorority to reject them, however.) May I also add, for every sorority (tiers notwithstanding) there are things that can make you a favorite at one chapter, and detested at another. And it's usually nothing you can even spell out.

[violetpretty]

I have come to several conclusions:

Because RFM does not require "bottom" chapters to cut "because of numbers", "bottom" chapters cut women for reasons. The "paper" reasons are obvious, but the reason for release may simply be that she had a dull personality or offended an active without intention. These are the things that mama or PNM may not realize.

Dull personality types/PNMs who fail to make an impression are more common than cross release percentages would suggest. It is possible that women who withdraw from recruitment may have been cut from all chapters had they stuck it out longer. We will never know.

Furthermore, failures are overrepresented on GC, either because PNMs/moms not in the know come here for information, or come specifically to vent about a failure.

[Benzgirl]

Can we put a sticky on this thread?

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Every NPC has chapters at large schools up North (and elsewhere where it is uncommon for PNMs to secure their own recs) who have three options:
*go without a NM class (not a viable option)
*have advisors scramble for recs for 500 girls
*ignore National policy

Unless you are simply writing on a sheet of paper, "Dear Sisters, I recommend Polly PNM for membership in XYZ. Sincerely, Alumna" and counting that as a rec.

I'm curious as to how some chapters get around such a policy.

Originally Posted by Titchou

Well, that's private membership selection information but there are ways.

Precisely.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I think many NPCs have no such policy. AOII doesn't. Recs are nice and may be necessary at some chapters but are not required Internationally to be accepted into AOII.

While its possible not all NPCs have that policy, but I would hope the Membership/Recruitment advisor for the ones that do are aware and make the chapter aware of that requirement. They should also be aware what they need to do to ensure that requirement is fulfilled.