Question About Quotas

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I am confused, it seems like AA was addressing a question that wasn't asked..."Why would a chapter member say 'you don't need recs'?" My guess is that a chapter member at a competitive school would say that if she WANTS the girl asking the question to be cut.

Oh, and alums might also not want to fill out recs because they just plain don't want to bother. Not everyone gives a crap about that sort of thing.

I would never fill out a rec or write a letter of recommendation or even introduction for a woman I didn't know personally.

I probably wouldn't think about it if I weren't in a region where it's a big deal. But knowing how valuable they can be for the girls and knowing how it could help a chapter, it seems worthwhile. (But I probably went the first eight or ten years out of school not writing any and really only started doing a bunch in the last few years. Oddly, I think GC made me more likely to think about writing them.)

I would never misrepresent how well I knew a PNM, but I've written them for people with varying levels of closeness to me, and to be honest, how well does the average teacher (or friend's parent) know a kid that she thinks she knows personally?

Originally Posted by gee_ess

I think the rec forms and what is required on them varies from GLO to GLO. Some forms ask for info as well as whether or not the alum would recommend them for membership. Other forms are filled out only if the member recommends the pnm for membership.

I didn't realize this. What do alumnae whose groups are in the second category do if someone really sketchy is rushing? It would take a lot for me to make contact with a chapter to say something negative, but if it ever happened, there's an option on the form to not recommend.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I didn't realize this. What do alumnae whose groups are in the second category do if someone really sketchy is rushing? It would take a lot for me to make contact with a chapter to say something negative, but if it ever happened, there's an option on the form to not recommend.

In Pi Phi there's several levels of recommendation. There's the just plain NO RIF, which is really unusual to get.

Then there's the standard "recommend" and "highly recommend." There's also an info only rec... Depending on the alum, sometimes they'll recommend on info only (having the philosophy that the chapter should discern if the PNM is qualified and they don't want to prevent someone from joining), but normally an info-only rec doesn't really do much because it can't be used as the rec and the chapter will have to pursue other options if it wants to bid the PNM.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

In Pi Phi there's several levels of recommendation. There's the just plain NO RIF, which is really unusual to get.

Then there's the standard "recommend" and "highly recommend." There's also an info only rec... Depending on the alum, sometimes they'll recommend on info only (having the philosophy that the chapter should discern if the PNM is qualified and they don't want to prevent someone from joining), but normally an info-only rec doesn't really do much because it can't be used as the rec and the chapter will have to pursue other options if it wants to bid the PNM.

But even the info-onlys probably provide more information to the chapter in advance than not getting one would or verifies other information that the chapter might consider in MS.

So while they aren't completely useful, they probably aren't a total waste of time, right?

If they are a total waste of time, someone ought to the the word out to the alumnae since they are wasting their own time too.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

But even the info-onlys probably provide more information to the chapter in advance than not getting one would or verifies other information that the chapter might consider in MS.

So while they aren't completely useful, they probably aren't a total waste of time, right?

If they are a total waste of time, someone ought to the the word out to the alumnae since they are wasting their own time too.

LOL - they weren't that useful to my chapter because we had deferred recruitment anyway, so it was really all about that. We only need RIFs to save us the work of getting them an alternate way. We already knew all the girls!

But yes, you're probably correct that they're extremely useful to chapters in other situations.

[Zillini]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

There's the just plain NO RIF, which is really unusual to get.

That's the truth. No Recs are a real rarity. Alums have to really, really, really think this PNM is bad to write a No Rec. Most times they'll just not write a Rec at all rather than sharing negative info with the chapter.

I've gotten a mere handful over my many years of advising. Why so few considering the 1,000's of women who have gone through our formal recruitment? The biggest concern I hear from alums is they are fearful it would get out that they No Rec'd a girl. They don't want to offend the parents, family, friends, etc of this girl if it becomes known the author was the reason why this girl got dropped.

FYI - We treat No Rec authors names as "classified information" for this reason. It's on a "need to know" basis and only the advisors and Recruitment officers need to know.

[AnchorAlumna]

Originally Posted by Zillini

...No Recs are a real rarity. Alums have to really, really, really think this PNM is bad to write a No Rec. Most times they'll just not write a Rec at all rather than sharing negative info with the chapter....the biggest concern I hear from alums is they are fearful it would get out that they No Rec'd a girl. They don't want to offend the parents, family, friends, etc...

Wow, that IS a consideration, especially if there are several folks from the hometown in the chapter or advising. I hadn't thought about that.
Here's what I do when there is a concern: write the rec. Either DON"T sign it, or (now) check the box that says "I do not recommend" (or whatever it says...can't remember exactly what it says).
THEN I put a hand-written Post-It note saying "CALL ME FIRST" with my name and phone number.
That way, I can relay my concerns to the correct person...and it's not written down anywhere, so there is no chance of any libel issues.
Now...I have seen a chapter or two go ahead and pledge a girl despite (strong) warnings from an alum. In fact, I've done it - when the alum's concerns proved to be trivial.
But it is NOT something you want to do all the time. NOT a good way to get alumnae support!

[gee_ess]

In the alum world, it has been my experience that we are not always tuned in to the dates of recruitment, changes in recruitment formats, etc. Think about the elderly church lady who gladly writes recs. I am betting she is not up on recent protocol at the universities where she might send a rec.

Basically, alums are ready, willing, and able to write a rec when asked. This is something most are thrilled to do - recommend their own group. But, what the chapter does with those recs can vary from campus to campus and is very individualized (beyond the need to have them before offering a bid)

Trying to tell alums how and when to write a rec - beyond "do you or don't you recommend this girl?" is too much and provides too many variables. If you tell alums - we really don't need your rec unless you know the rushee personally, there will be all sorts of women trying to figure out if their rec is authentic or not, plus there will be some chapters who actually do need those info-only recs. I see lots of room for confusion and miscues. "Susie Q could have had a rec but the friend of her father's secretary was afraid they didn't want it since she didn't really know Susie Q very well."

Excess recs are not a problem in a chapter. They know how to sort through them and glean what they need or don't need. They also know how to interpret them based on what their recs require or don't require on the form. I totally understand the desire to improve the system, but from the alum end, is not the way to approach it. Again, too many variables.

Just my 2 cents.

[AnchorAlumna]

Good comments gee_ess!
I do know some of our alumnae, especially ones who initiated at a couple of chapters in particular, think you have to personally know a PNM to rec them.
Wrong!
There is no way alums of any group can personally know EVERY PNM...maybe that's true in a small town, but it's not going to fly in big or even medium-sized cities.
I have comfortably signed recs if I found someone else who was familiar with the family. I have even signed recs if I couldn't find anybody who knew them, but they looked good on paper.
After all....even the most highly recommended PNM, coming with personal recs from close friends and relatives, can screw up when she hits campus. We all know the straight-A student who slept off hangovers instead of attending class and got a choice reputation while getting those hangovers.
You never know.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by gee_ess

In the alum world, it has been my experience that we are not always tuned in to the dates of recruitment, changes in recruitment formats, etc. Think about the elderly church lady who gladly writes recs. I am betting she is not up on recent protocol at the universities where she might send a rec.

Basically, alums are ready, willing, and able to write a rec when asked. This is something most are thrilled to do - recommend their own group. But, what the chapter does with those recs can vary from campus to campus and is very individualized (beyond the need to have them before offering a bid)

Trying to tell alums how and when to write a rec - beyond "do you or don't you recommend this girl?" is too much and provides too many variables. If you tell alums - we really don't need your rec unless you know the rushee personally, there will be all sorts of women trying to figure out if their rec is authentic or not, plus there will be some chapters who actually do need those info-only recs. I see lots of room for confusion and miscues. "Susie Q could have had a rec but the friend of her father's secretary was afraid they didn't want it since she didn't really know Susie Q very well."

Excess recs are not a problem in a chapter. They know how to sort through them and glean what they need or don't need. They also know how to interpret them based on what their recs require or don't require on the form. I totally understand the desire to improve the system, but from the alum end, is not the way to approach it. Again, too many variables.

Just my 2 cents.

I can understand what you are saying, and I don't have any expectations of chapters actually trying to be specific.

[Just interested]

Alright, I am going to through this out for discussion. What if you know someone is going elsewhere and absolutely has no interest in your group.and you don't want your girls to waste their time? Do you A. write the rec and say nothing B write the rec but tell them C No Rec them to force a cut

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Just interested

Alright, I am going to through this out for discussion. What if you know someone is going elsewhere and absolutely has no interest in your group.and you don't want your girls to waste their time? Do you A. write the rec and say nothing B write the rec but tell them C No Rec them to force a cut

What you have described is pretty close to the circumstance for which I just didn't write the rec at all. I figured it would sort itself out.

Now, if I actually liked the girl, but knew she was more interested in a different chapter, I might write a positive rec but tell them the circumstances of her connection to XYZ.

Some of what I want for PNMs that I know and like is simply for them to form a positive impression of my GLO, even if they end up with bids elsewhere. Not so much so they're all "zowza, UGAalum is even more awesome than I thought," but because it's a PR thing for the chapter to be well thought of. They have a better shot at being well thought of if they rush well. To rush well, they need info about the PNMs. So, I'd write a rec that let them rush well.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by Just interested

Alright, I am going to through this out for discussion. What if you know someone is going elsewhere and absolutely has no interest in your group.and you don't want your girls to waste their time? Do you A. write the rec and say nothing B write the rec but tell them C No Rec them to force a cut

I think it would be a really rare circumstance for those conditions to be absolutely true. While I know a lot of women start our recruitment saying "I only want to be an XYZ", the reality, after they are cut from XYZ might be different. We see that all the time in recruitment threads. Women do sometimes change their minds during recruitment. I think, if she was someone I would want to be in my organization, I would write a positive rec.

[pinkyphimu]

Originally Posted by Just interested

Alright, I am going to through this out for discussion. What if you know someone is going elsewhere and absolutely has no interest in your group.and you don't want your girls to waste their time? Do you A. write the rec and say nothing B write the rec but tell them C No Rec them to force a cut

But we say all the time to keep your options open going into recruitment. Maybe XYZ drops her, too. What if she gets to school and decides that she hates every girl in XYZ and would rather slit her wrists than join? Then what? I would definately never write that she is more interested in another chapter. Keep it positive and about the PNM.

[UGAalum94]

My guess is that Just Interested has in mind the jerk girl who has to tell everyone how she only has eyes for certain groups and that crosses the line into rudeness in her attitude toward others. She's the PNM who is likely to ask to use the restroom during your group's party and stay gone the whole time to telegraph her disinterest (despite having opportunities to use the restroom between events).

In that case, you might be think, no rec her so she's gone early and let them focus on girls who would be worth rushing.

Personally, I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't want to deprive the chapter of deciding to.

ETA: when I said I might mention her interest in my rec for a girl I did like, it would just be so the chapter would have a realistic understanding, not so they'd cut her. Maybe like a comment, "Suzy PNM has several friends in XYZ but I hope you all make her feel equally at home." If the chapter has to release someone, I'd rather they keep girls with genuinely open minds or at least girls who hadn't already revealed their biases. If release figures turn it into a guessing game, I'd want the chapter to have the most information.

But honestly, even in cases where I suspected a lack of genuine interest, I never said anything in the rec. I have the same attitude of wait and see how recruitment actually goes. If she's likely to be a great member, that's what is really need to know.

[Zillini]

Originally Posted by Just interested

Alright, I am going to through this out for discussion. What if you know someone is going elsewhere and absolutely has no interest in your group.and you don't want your girls to waste their time? Do you A. write the rec and say nothing B write the rec but tell them C No Rec them to force a cut

Assuming: 1) The PNM has asked you for a rec even though she's not interested in your GLO, though I wonder why she'd even find a rec for a chapter she knows she doesn't want. 2) There is nothing actually wrong or bad about the PNM other than she's not interested.

No Recs should be used for strong, legit, verifiable concerns IMO. If it were me, I'd write a really basic Rec without any extra info. This way you can honestly tell the PNM you have in fact written one for her.

Then I'd call/email an Advisor and let her know that this girl isn't interested at all, but of course hope she'll change her mind during the Recruitment process. Then it's up to the Advisor on how to pursue it. If the actives love her, they should be allowed to invite the girl back and hopefully convince her it's a great place to be. If the PNM is "on the bubble" when it comes to invites/cuts, this tidbit of info might help them make a decision.