Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

[Educatingblue]

Originally Posted by jon1856

"Polygamy is outlawed everywhere in the United States but the male followers of such sects typically marry one woman officially and take the others as "spiritual wives."
This makes the women single in the eyes of the state which can entitle them and their children to various welfare benefits."

I am glad you mentioned this. My husband and I were discussing this the other day and minus the child molestation, this is the same thing many married people choose to do everyday...Married and have affairs with other women/men. What about people who do not acknowledge or follow any religion and just sleep around??? I know it does not hold the same stigma, but it is definitely something to consider. I am not going to condone what happened there, but I definitely try to be open-minded about different cultures/religions etc.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by Educatingblue

I am glad you mentioned this. My husband and I were discussing this the other day and minus the child molestation, this is the same thing many married people choose to do everyday...Married and have affairs with other women/men. What about people who do not acknowledge or follow any religion and just sleep around??? I know it does not hold the same stigma, but it is definitely something to consider. I am not going to condone what happened there, but I definitely try to be open-minded about different cultures/religions etc.

One of the very big differences is that they use/abuse the system and use the monies to support the group.
Read any of the books suggested here for more details.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

I am a very liberal and open-minded person for the most part. But I have zero empathy for the Mormon "faith" and what comes with it. I do not even recognize Mormonism as a legitimate denomination of Christianity.

Sorry, but there it is.

Same here. I can't trust that group as a whole...

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

And yes, you better believe I have the same disdain for the Catholic Church of 200+ years ago that engaged in history's greatest child molestation ring. My scholastic knowledge of that- and the literature of Europe during the medievel and Renaissance period- is very high. And there is no sugar coating the horrible reality of the church at that time- again as with the Mormon church (though to a greater degree with Catholicism back then) based on a religion driven by economic and political power.

History's greatest child molestation ring? I'm going to need some sources on that.

[SWTXBelle]

You can make a pretty solid case for public schools being the "world's largest child molestation ring", come to that. And yet, we never see much coverage . . . isolated incidents are reported,but there's no hue and cry about the overall problem. Your child is far more likely to be abused in a school setting than a Catholic church, especially now. (And I'm not letting the Roman Catholics off the hook - the way they handled abuse until recently is a disgrace.)

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

You can make a pretty solid case for public schools being the "world's largest child molestation ring", come to that. And yet, we never see much coverage . . . isolated incidents are reported,but there's no hue and cry about the overall problem. Your child is far more likely to be abused in a school setting than a Catholic church, especially now. (And I'm not letting the Roman Catholics off the hook - the way they handled abuse until recently is a disgrace.)

But he refers to 200+ years ago, which is a new one to me as far as child molestation charges.

And not to quibble too much, blaming all Roman Catholics for the 20th century stuff may not make as much sense as it first appears. The Church hierarchy, particularly in the US, certainly deserves blame. The average Roman Catholic who was probably completely unaware of any allegations, not so much.

And as far as public schools, it wouldn't make much sense to frame the problem that way considering the number of interactions with children daily and the relatively tiny number of molestation cases. Surely more children are molested in their own homes or those of friends and family members. Would you say that the American family is a hotbed of child molestation? Using these standards, I suppose we'd be forced to conclude that places with the best records on child molestation are the places that children are least likely to be.

But I think your point was that EE-BO's claim may have been a little flawed.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

History's greatest child molestation ring? I'm going to need some sources on that.

There is some conjecture there, but I base it in large part on the literature of Spain during the Medievel and Renaissance periods. Just about every major work that survived takes on the church in some way. And many books, like Lazarillo de Tormes, are full of tales of church abuse of the citizenry sexually.

Then of course there are all the works the Chuch banned and destroyed. There are many partial texts out there that tell far more chilling tales- one a partial story about a female heroine who went from town to town and cut off the sexual organs of priests who took her in and tried to molest her.

The sheer importance of Church misdoings throughout the entirety of Spanish Literature of that time is a very telling and frightening thing.

But again, I do not equate that with today. It was not Catholicism itself that was evil- but rather the fact that the Church then wielded such a great power in Europe.

It is the component of power and economic influence that creates the temptation and the trouble.

And this is important because it separates the religion itself from the actions of the power structure of the Church. To an extent, parishoners who support such a church are tied to its actions- but that is still a far cry from all Mormons or all Catholics of 500 years ago being monsters.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

There is some conjecture there, but I base it in large part on the literature of Spain during the Medievel and Renaissance periods. Just about every major work that survived takes on the church in some way. And many books, like Lazarillo de Tormes, are full of tales of church abuse of the citizenry sexually.

Then of course there are all the works the Chuch banned and destroyed. There are many partial texts out there that tell far more chilling tales- one a partial story about a female heroine who went from town to town and cut off the sexual organs of priests who took her in and tried to molest her.

The sheer importance of Church misdoings throughout the entirety of Spanish Literature of that time is a very telling and frightening thing.

But again, I do not equate that with today. It was not Catholicism itself that was evil- but rather the fact that the Church then wielded such a great power in Europe.

It is the component of power and economic influence that creates the temptation and the trouble.

And this is important because it separates the religion itself from the actions of the power structure of the Church. To an extent, parishoners who support such a church are tied to its actions- but that is still a far cry from all Mormons or all Catholics of 500 years ago being monsters.

"Some conjecture" may be the understatement of a lifetime.

The parishioners are only tied to its actions if the parishioners are aware or should be aware of the abuse taking place or have some power or means to stop it. I'm not sure either the Mormons of today or the Catholics of history would meet that standard.

Are you aware that sometimes the things in books aren't real? Just asking.

ETA: I'm, of course, not saying that the Catholic Church historically wasn't corrupt. I just think you have to acknowledge that any entity as powerful as it was would face exaggeration of its faults.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

"Some conjecture" may be the understatement of a lifetime.

The parishioners are only tied to its actions if the parishioners are aware or should be aware of the abuse taking place or have some power or means to stop it. I'm not sure either the Mormons of today or the Catholics of history would meet that standard.

Are you aware that sometimes the things in books aren't real? Just asking.

ETA: I'm, of course, not saying that the Catholic Church historically wasn't corrupt. I just think you have to acknowledge that any entity as powerful as it was would face exaggeration of its faults.

This is not a matter of "sometimes the things in books aren't real". This is a matter of two ENTIRE eras of literature being heavily dominated by a specific theme.

I don't want to brag, but I have read almost every major Spanish work of Literature covering 3 centuries- and a good bit of the most highly regarded work of the last 200 years. We are talking over 100 novels and many times more that number of poems, short stories and partially surviving excerpts of books that were banned and destroyed by the Inquisition. I know that may not translate into a "fact sheet" by modern standards- but it is all we have, and I have done the work and rendered informed judgements.

As for your final comment- that is entirely the point I was making. The Catholic Church was, for a long time, THE most powerful entity in Europe at a time when Europe was the center of the human world.

It is inevitable that an entity which had enormous wealth and the power endowed by religious belief would be so potent that its leaders would be ripe for unchecked corruption. It is all the more so because Europe at that time was totally class-driven. The priesthood was the ONLY possible way for people born into the lower and middle classes to attain the same degree of power and security as the nobility. So to become a priest was many people's ONLY choice for wealth and prestige. That is precisely the kind of environment that breeds corruption and the "blue wall" mentality.

But if you want facts, I can give you facts. There is a wide body of documented evidence of the Inquisitions torture techniques, what triggered their interest in people and the trail of blood they left behind.

And in 1492, when Columbus was "discovering" America- Spain expelled the Sephardic Jews from their country. Maybe that was not quite as bad as what the Nazi's did since the Spaniards did not kill their Jews- but they rounded them up and threw them out for no other reason than they were Jews and Ferdinand & Isabella had been convinced that religious purity (Catholic purity) was the key to Spain's continued endurance as a great nation. It is the same kind of racist attitude that drove the Nazi's, the KKK and other luminous organizations whose legacy is pretty clear.

There is plenty of factual evidence out there to suggest what a horror the Catholic Church inflicted on the world during that time. I don't know what more to say than that. It is a major factor in how the world is today.

[Army Wife'79]

Maybe some of the "kicked out" young men would be able to help identify. I know they get rid of young men and kick them out of the compound to be on their own and they lose all contact with their parents and sisters b/c they don't want too many men in the compound so the old geezers can get the young girls pregnant. I saw a TV special on it and was horrified that they did the things they did.

[macallan25]

Get over yourself canadian.

Take your cry somewhere else.

[jon1856]

Some updated news links:
Affidavit: Fearful 16-year-old bride made late-night call

SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- Frightened and perhaps pregnant for the second time in a year, the 16-year-old mother whispered into a borrowed cell phone, defying everything she'd been taught by making contact with the outside world.
She said she was being held against her will at the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas. She said she'd been beaten by the man, more than three times her age, who had taken her as his seventh wife. Now, her parents were talking about sending her younger sister, 15, to the ranch as well.
She said she wanted out.
The first call came through to a Department of Family and Protective Services hot line at 11:32 p.m. March 29. A second call came the following day.
This time, the caller said, crying, that she wanted to take it all back. She said she was "happy and fine" and didn't want to get in trouble.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/09/...nch/index.html

Lawyers: Polygamist Compound Search Like Searching of Vatican

SAN ANGELO, Texas — Lawyers for a polygamist sect that is the subject of a massive child-abuse investigation argued in court Wednesday that although its members' multiple marriages and cloistered ways may be unusual, they have a right to their faith and privacy.
Gerry Goldstein, a San Antonio lawyer representing the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, also told a judge that the search of the temple in the sect's West Texas compound is analagous to a law enforcement search of the Vatican or other holy places.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,349113,00.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24014376/

[DSTCHAOS]

A former FLDS member is on CNN talking about how it took her 5 years to adjust after she left. They said the education level is so low that these people often know nothing about the outside world. There are teenagers who don't know what a crayon is.

The former FLDS member said there was also a great deal of racism. They were told that blacks were originally white and God made them black to punish them for sins. And if the FLDS members talk to or hang around blacks, the black will spread and the FLDS members will turn black. The former FLDS member said she was in a grocery line and there were blacks in the line. She said she began to panic because she thought she was going to leave the store as a black woman.

I have to admit that I laughed at that and felt sad at that. Brainwashing is real. It happens at various levels in many organizations (some legitimate, others not). But brainwashing is compounded by isolating members so they can't find the truth on their own.

[macallan25]

I know.

[5Knowledge1913]

Is this the only FLDS church or are there more?