Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

I am a very liberal and open-minded person for the most part. But I have zero empathy for the Mormon "faith" and what comes with it. I do not even recognize Mormonism as a legitimate denomination of Christianity.

Sorry, but there it is.

Same here. I can't trust that group as a whole...

[Army Wife'79]

Maybe some of the "kicked out" young men would be able to help identify. I know they get rid of young men and kick them out of the compound to be on their own and they lose all contact with their parents and sisters b/c they don't want too many men in the compound so the old geezers can get the young girls pregnant. I saw a TV special on it and was horrified that they did the things they did.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

And yes, you better believe I have the same disdain for the Catholic Church of 200+ years ago that engaged in history's greatest child molestation ring. My scholastic knowledge of that- and the literature of Europe during the medievel and Renaissance period- is very high. And there is no sugar coating the horrible reality of the church at that time- again as with the Mormon church (though to a greater degree with Catholicism back then) based on a religion driven by economic and political power.

History's greatest child molestation ring? I'm going to need some sources on that.

[SWTXBelle]

You can make a pretty solid case for public schools being the "world's largest child molestation ring", come to that. And yet, we never see much coverage . . . isolated incidents are reported,but there's no hue and cry about the overall problem. Your child is far more likely to be abused in a school setting than a Catholic church, especially now. (And I'm not letting the Roman Catholics off the hook - the way they handled abuse until recently is a disgrace.)

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

History's greatest child molestation ring? I'm going to need some sources on that.

There is some conjecture there, but I base it in large part on the literature of Spain during the Medievel and Renaissance periods. Just about every major work that survived takes on the church in some way. And many books, like Lazarillo de Tormes, are full of tales of church abuse of the citizenry sexually.

Then of course there are all the works the Chuch banned and destroyed. There are many partial texts out there that tell far more chilling tales- one a partial story about a female heroine who went from town to town and cut off the sexual organs of priests who took her in and tried to molest her.

The sheer importance of Church misdoings throughout the entirety of Spanish Literature of that time is a very telling and frightening thing.

But again, I do not equate that with today. It was not Catholicism itself that was evil- but rather the fact that the Church then wielded such a great power in Europe.

It is the component of power and economic influence that creates the temptation and the trouble.

And this is important because it separates the religion itself from the actions of the power structure of the Church. To an extent, parishoners who support such a church are tied to its actions- but that is still a far cry from all Mormons or all Catholics of 500 years ago being monsters.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

You can make a pretty solid case for public schools being the "world's largest child molestation ring", come to that. And yet, we never see much coverage . . . isolated incidents are reported,but there's no hue and cry about the overall problem. Your child is far more likely to be abused in a school setting than a Catholic church, especially now. (And I'm not letting the Roman Catholics off the hook - the way they handled abuse until recently is a disgrace.)

But he refers to 200+ years ago, which is a new one to me as far as child molestation charges.

And not to quibble too much, blaming all Roman Catholics for the 20th century stuff may not make as much sense as it first appears. The Church hierarchy, particularly in the US, certainly deserves blame. The average Roman Catholic who was probably completely unaware of any allegations, not so much.

And as far as public schools, it wouldn't make much sense to frame the problem that way considering the number of interactions with children daily and the relatively tiny number of molestation cases. Surely more children are molested in their own homes or those of friends and family members. Would you say that the American family is a hotbed of child molestation? Using these standards, I suppose we'd be forced to conclude that places with the best records on child molestation are the places that children are least likely to be.

But I think your point was that EE-BO's claim may have been a little flawed.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

There is some conjecture there, but I base it in large part on the literature of Spain during the Medievel and Renaissance periods. Just about every major work that survived takes on the church in some way. And many books, like Lazarillo de Tormes, are full of tales of church abuse of the citizenry sexually.

Then of course there are all the works the Chuch banned and destroyed. There are many partial texts out there that tell far more chilling tales- one a partial story about a female heroine who went from town to town and cut off the sexual organs of priests who took her in and tried to molest her.

The sheer importance of Church misdoings throughout the entirety of Spanish Literature of that time is a very telling and frightening thing.

But again, I do not equate that with today. It was not Catholicism itself that was evil- but rather the fact that the Church then wielded such a great power in Europe.

It is the component of power and economic influence that creates the temptation and the trouble.

And this is important because it separates the religion itself from the actions of the power structure of the Church. To an extent, parishoners who support such a church are tied to its actions- but that is still a far cry from all Mormons or all Catholics of 500 years ago being monsters.

"Some conjecture" may be the understatement of a lifetime.

The parishioners are only tied to its actions if the parishioners are aware or should be aware of the abuse taking place or have some power or means to stop it. I'm not sure either the Mormons of today or the Catholics of history would meet that standard.

Are you aware that sometimes the things in books aren't real? Just asking.

ETA: I'm, of course, not saying that the Catholic Church historically wasn't corrupt. I just think you have to acknowledge that any entity as powerful as it was would face exaggeration of its faults.

[jitterbug13]

Originally Posted by Jill1228

UGA, I want to read that book! I just finished reading "Escape" by Carolyn Jessop. She escaped from the FDLS with all her kids

awesome book

Ironically, her ex-husband is believed to be the leader of the compound that was raided.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

"Some conjecture" may be the understatement of a lifetime.

The parishioners are only tied to its actions if the parishioners are aware or should be aware of the abuse taking place or have some power or means to stop it. I'm not sure either the Mormons of today or the Catholics of history would meet that standard.

Are you aware that sometimes the things in books aren't real? Just asking.

ETA: I'm, of course, not saying that the Catholic Church historically wasn't corrupt. I just think you have to acknowledge that any entity as powerful as it was would face exaggeration of its faults.

This is not a matter of "sometimes the things in books aren't real". This is a matter of two ENTIRE eras of literature being heavily dominated by a specific theme.

I don't want to brag, but I have read almost every major Spanish work of Literature covering 3 centuries- and a good bit of the most highly regarded work of the last 200 years. We are talking over 100 novels and many times more that number of poems, short stories and partially surviving excerpts of books that were banned and destroyed by the Inquisition. I know that may not translate into a "fact sheet" by modern standards- but it is all we have, and I have done the work and rendered informed judgements.

As for your final comment- that is entirely the point I was making. The Catholic Church was, for a long time, THE most powerful entity in Europe at a time when Europe was the center of the human world.

It is inevitable that an entity which had enormous wealth and the power endowed by religious belief would be so potent that its leaders would be ripe for unchecked corruption. It is all the more so because Europe at that time was totally class-driven. The priesthood was the ONLY possible way for people born into the lower and middle classes to attain the same degree of power and security as the nobility. So to become a priest was many people's ONLY choice for wealth and prestige. That is precisely the kind of environment that breeds corruption and the "blue wall" mentality.

But if you want facts, I can give you facts. There is a wide body of documented evidence of the Inquisitions torture techniques, what triggered their interest in people and the trail of blood they left behind.

And in 1492, when Columbus was "discovering" America- Spain expelled the Sephardic Jews from their country. Maybe that was not quite as bad as what the Nazi's did since the Spaniards did not kill their Jews- but they rounded them up and threw them out for no other reason than they were Jews and Ferdinand & Isabella had been convinced that religious purity (Catholic purity) was the key to Spain's continued endurance as a great nation. It is the same kind of racist attitude that drove the Nazi's, the KKK and other luminous organizations whose legacy is pretty clear.

There is plenty of factual evidence out there to suggest what a horror the Catholic Church inflicted on the world during that time. I don't know what more to say than that. It is a major factor in how the world is today.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

This is not a matter of "sometimes the things in books aren't real". This is a matter of two ENTIRE eras of literature being heavily dominated by a specific theme.

I don't want to brag, but I have read almost every major Spanish work of Literature covering 3 centuries- and a good bit of the most highly regarded work of the last 200 years. We are talking over 100 novels and many times more that number of poems, short stories and partially surviving excerpts of books that were banned and destroyed by the Inquisition. I know that may not translate into a "fact sheet" by modern standards- but it is all we have, and I have done the work and rendered informed judgements.

As for your final comment- that is entirely the point I was making. The Catholic Church was, for a long time, THE most powerful entity in Europe at a time when Europe was the center of the human world.

It is inevitable that an entity which had enormous wealth and the power endowed by religious belief would be so potent that its leaders would be ripe for unchecked corruption. It is all the more so because Europe at that time was totally class-driven. The priesthood was the ONLY possible way for people born into the lower and middle classes to attain the same degree of power and security as the nobility. So to become a priest was many people's ONLY choice for wealth and prestige. That is precisely the kind of environment that breeds corruption and the "blue wall" mentality.

But if you want facts, I can give you facts. There is a wide body of documented evidence of the Inquisitions torture techniques, what triggered their interest in people and the trail of blood they left behind.

And in 1492, when Columbus was "discovering" America- Spain expelled the Sephardic Jews from their country. Maybe that was not quite as bad as what the Nazi's did since the Spaniards did not kill their Jews- but they rounded them up and threw them out for no other reason than they were Jews and Ferdinand & Isabella had been convinced that religious purity (Catholic purity) was the key to Spain's continued endurance as a great nation. It is the same kind of racist attitude that drove the Nazi's, the KKK and other luminous organizations whose legacy is pretty clear.

There is plenty of factual evidence out there to suggest what a horror the Catholic Church inflicted on the world during that time. I don't know what more to say than that. It is a major factor in how the world is today.

Right, but if you remember, your claim was the "biggest child molestation ring in history" if I remember correctly which doesn't seem to be what you are addressing here.

If you had said that the Catholic Church was a corrupt institution or that the Inquisition was really bad back in the day, I wouldn't have questioned you. You've shifted your claim a great deal.

[jon1856]

Affidavit: Report of child brides led to raid

SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- Tipped that girls as young as 13 were being forced to enter "spiritual marriages," have sex and bear children, Texas officials raided an isolated polygamist retreat in West Texas, according to court documents released Tuesday.

The information came from a 16-year-old girl who called a family violence hot line March 29, "expressing the need to leave her current living situation," according to the affidavit.
The teen bride said she was in an abusive "spiritual" marriage to an older sect member, the documents stated. She reported that she was the man's seventh wife and had been beaten and choked.
She said she had been hospitalized in the past with cracked ribs and hoped to escape the abuse by faking a medical condition.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/08/...nch/index.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,348148,00.html

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Right, but if you remember, your claim was the "biggest child molestation ring in history" if I remember correctly which doesn't seem to be what you are addressing here.

If you had said that the Catholic Church was a corrupt institution or that the Inquisition was really bad back in the day, I wouldn't have questioned you. You've shifted your claim a great deal.

The anecdotal and historical evidence is driven heavily by reports and accounts of pedophilia and rape of women.

More recently, how about Cardinal Bernard Law who was knowingly transferring a repeatedly complained about pedophilic priest who had attacked many children. It was known the guy was messing with kids, and Law just kept moving him around.

How about the fact the Pope pulled him over to Europe and gave him a PROMOTION when Law had to get out of the US or face the ire of American Catholics?

How are Law and our last Pope NOT somehow guilty for the facilitation of child molestation on this score alone?

If something like that can happen today, then it is no stretch to take all the evidence of times past and put together the pieces.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Right, but if you remember, your claim was the "biggest child molestation ring in history" if I remember correctly which doesn't seem to be what you are addressing here.

If you had said that the Catholic Church was a corrupt institution or that the Inquisition was really bad back in the day, I wouldn't have questioned you. You've shifted your claim a great deal.

Just accept the fact that EE-BO happily bought into the anti-Church and anti-Catholic genre of literature that arose amongst the "leftist" elements of Spanish society over the last century and a bit - and while some of the complaints are justified, it doesn't make the literature any more credible in an analysis of history and society... just good fiction.

EE-BO has basically focused on the most anti-Church/Catholic elements that appealed to the pre-existing or desired "academic" result that sees EE-BO's beliefs validated - of course that means that pesky things like reality or critical thought get lost in the pursuit of "proof" of "teh evilz Catholics".

Just do what I do, talk just enough to the person to realize that they aren't legitimate critics but anti-Catholic bigots and move on...

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

The anecdotal and historical evidence is driven heavily by reports and accounts of pedophilia and rape of women.

Please cite credible or respected academic sources (note this doesn't include Communist Convent/Monastery fantasy novellas) that back up this claim - both Catholic and non-Catholic sources would be nice.

More recently, how about Cardinal Bernard Law who was knowingly transferring a repeatedly complained about pedophilic priest who had attacked many children. It was known the guy was messing with kids, and Law just kept moving him around.

So singular cases and people prove a centuries long conspiracy? Citing singular sources in furtherance of a argument showing systemic abuse wouldn't net you a passing grade in most schools...

How about the fact the Pope pulled him over to Europe and gave him a PROMOTION when Law had to get out of the US or face the ire of American Catholics?

Because the Pope exercised his prerogative under Canon Law to deal with the Cardinal "in-house"... and promotion doesn't always equal advancement or reward - particularlly if said promotion is effectively an exile.

How are Law and our last Pope NOT somehow guilty for the facilitation of child molestation on this score alone?

Because again the exception doesn't prove the rule, no matter how much you wish it did - was Law a moron in trying to play the protector of the Church's rep? Yes. Did he make a colossal mistake in not treating the complaints credibly? Yes. Did he err in accepting the offender's repentance as credible, and forgiving them? Maybe...

But this hardly the image of the Cardinal and Pope sitting down and figuring out how to facilitate the abuse of children that you imply.

If something like that can happen today, then it is no stretch to take all the evidence of times past and put together the pieces.

Yes it is a stretch jackass because disconnected singular incidents doesn't make a vast connected conspiracy of systemic child abuse...

[macallan25]

Get over yourself canadian.

Take your cry somewhere else.